This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

[Awha]

So a player encounters a fight for the first time ever, dies to various mechanics, and gets nothing for his efforts because he didn't alt tab out of the game, google a strategy guide, and memorize every single mechanic for every single boss prior to queueing for the roulette. That's how WoW expects you to do things, but I for one am super glad that this game doesn't force that garbage on you. Learning a fight is part of the fun of the game. If you want to skip over the fun part and instantly cheat via a strategy guide, more power to you. I don't think you should deny others rewards for not wanting to cheat their way through the game, though.

Thing is despite what many think failure is also an important part of learning. I cannot speak for others but say if I am learning a fight and I do not perform well I will pass on the loot because I did not feel I earned it.

I get this is my standard, but what I am getting at even while learning fight if for whatever reason your individual progress is slower then the groups and generally your individual impact on the overall success was objectively less we and SE have a means to see this even if people want to pretend they do ot exist. Should said person honestly be entitled to the same rewards as the overall group because they happened to be in the right place at the right time?

In short should we reward the mere existence of a player? Personally I have always felt such game design was flawed since it does not promote growth with ones character at that point the progression becomes expected accompanied by the power spike. This in my view is what lead to the utter devaluation of Dungene experience but it was not to please the elitist but the lazy player.

[Ronduwil]

Thing is despite what many think failure is also an important part of learning. I cannot speak for others but say if I am learning a fight and I do not perform well I will pass on the loot because I did not feel I earned it.

I may be in the minority with what I'm about to say, but I suspect that I'm not. Failure itself is punishment enough as is. Floor tanking a fight isn't fun, regardless of how much loot I do or don't get. Every failure already pushes me to want to do better and to wonder what killed me as well as how to avoid it. It already feels bad enough as it is, and the game doesn't need to compound that ill feeling by denying me the fight's reward as well. Missing out on the reward feels like the time spent in the instance was a complete waste. That kind of system seriously feels like it's kicking me when I'm already down. I've seen the way this plays out in the WoW M+ system, and it's not pleasant. Players gatekeep who they do and don't run with to the point that there's now a third party rating system that was created explicitly for that purpose. Players abandon instances mid-run because they don't want to fail the timer and get only half the reward. In contrast, in FFXIV, a wipe is treated like a growth opportunity, and there is rarely any vitriol as a result. I've never seen a player quit in the middle of an instance because it was taking too long. If one players knows more than the others, they share their knowledge and collect commendations for it later. All in all, it's a pleasant environment that I'm happy to be a part of. I don't think that sticking it to a hypothetical AFKer that I've yet to even encounter in this game is worth destroying the positive vibe that we have going right now.

[Awha]

I may be in the minority with what I'm about to say, but I suspect that I'm not. Failure itself is punishment enough as is. Floor tanking a fight isn't fun, regardless of how much loot I do or don't get. Every failure already pushes me to want to do better and to wonder what killed me as well as how to avoid it. It already feels bad enough as it is, and the game doesn't need to compound that ill feeling by denying me the fight's reward as well. Missing out on the reward feels like the time spent in the instance was a complete waste. That kind of system seriously feels like it's kicking me when I'm already down. I've seen the way this plays out in the WoW M+ system, and it's not pleasant. Players gatekeep who they do and don't run with to the point that there's now a third party rating system that was created explicitly for that purpose. Players abandon instances mid-run because they don't want to fail the timer and get only half the reward. In contrast, in FFXIV, a wipe is treated like a growth opportunity, and there is rarely any vitriol as a result. I've never seen a player quit in the middle of an instance because it was taking too long. If one players knows more than the others, they share their knowledge and collect commendations for it later. All in all, it's a pleasant environment that I'm happy to be a part of. I don't think that sticking it to a hypothetical AFKer that I've yet to even encounter in this game is worth destroying the positive vibe that we have going right now.

Question remains why should a person that tanked the floor be eligible for reward simply for existing? What positive "vibe" is worth rewarding someone doing nothing?

Unless you are under the assumption that a person who tanks the floor did aid the group with their meme existence because without said person they would not be able to have access to the LB or some weird thing so they did in fact contribute or if the encounter was cleared despite the floor tank so as such their contributions was irrelevant so what does it matter.

I mean generally I am not one for participation rewards.

[Seera1024]

Question remains why should a person that tanked the floor be eligible for reward simply for existing? What positive "vibe" is worth rewarding someone doing nothing?

Unless you are under the assumption that a person who tanks the floor did aid the group with their meme existence because without said person they would not be able to have access to the LB or some weird thing so they did in fact contribute or if the encounter was cleared despite the floor tank so as such their contributions was irrelevant so what does it matter.

I mean generally I am not one for participation rewards.

Because if content is cleared then you contributed to that win.

If in an Olympic football match a player misses all of the shots they take and they take a lot, but their country still gets gold, they get a gold medal. They don't get told they don't get gold because they had a bad day or the other team's goalie was that good.

If you fail to complete the duty either because you personally left, your group voted to abandon, you got kicked, or the timer ran out, you don't anything. You don't get a participating reward for anything you hadn't already completed in that content.

EDIT: Yes, this makes it harder for leachers to be caught but I'd hope that most groups would kick players who are intentionally doing this. I don't consider players with disabilities playing to their best ability to be leaching, though. And they can be hard to distinguish from the ones just doing it to avoid putting in the work.

[Awha]

Because if content is cleared then you contributed to that win.

If in an Olympic football match a player misses all of the shots they take and they take a lot, but their country still gets gold, they get a gold medal. They don't get told they don't get gold because they had a bad day or the other team's goalie was that good.

If you fail to complete the duty either because you personally left, your group voted to abandon, you got kicked, or the timer ran out, you don't anything. You don't get a participating reward for anything you hadn't already completed in that content.

EDIT: Yes, this makes it harder for leachers to be caught but I'd hope that most groups would kick players who are intentionally doing this. I don't consider players with disabilities playing to their best ability to be leaching, though. And they can be hard to distinguish from the ones just doing it to avoid putting in the work.

Yeah, not exactly sure how someone who is tanking the floor contributed to a clear and I do get that me wiping a group just to remove the floor tank is in poor taste cause yes it would have been possible but personally I truly do not like when players get an equal chance at rewards for doing nothing.

Though I get my view is in the minority since as for your Olympics stance if I did next to nothing to expect breath I would not accept the medal being rewarded for being a hinderence to the team is funny take in my opinion.

[TaleraRistain]

Though I get my view is in the minority since as for your Olympics stance if I did next to nothing to expect breath I would not accept the medal being rewarded for being a hinderence to the team is funny take in my opinion.

It goes back to the old adage, there is no "i" in team. You succeed or fail together.

[Ronduwil]

Question remains why should a person that tanked the floor be eligible for reward simply for existing? What positive "vibe" is worth rewarding someone doing nothing?

I completely disagree with this for two reasons:

1. In most cases, they haven't "done nothing." They tried something, and they didn't succeed as well as they would have liked. We don't know why they didn't succeed. Maybe they're new to the fight, or maybe they haven't done the fight in a long time. The alternative is for everyone to stop DPS while the player gets raised or to wipe the fight and start over so you can try again with that person playing to their full potential. No one wants to do that in the roulette.

2. You're acting as if rewarding that person is somehow taking away something from more deserving people. It's not. This is a video game. The rewards are created digitally with no additional resources required. It's not like a real life job where the company has limited resources to dole out and an underperformer is simply leeching resources that could have gone to more deserving employees.

I mean generally I am not one for participation rewards.

Then why are you wasting your time playing video games? The whole point of a video game is a participation reward. It's not like you're actually saving the world or honing your fencing skills while hacking away at virtual bad guys.

[Awha]

I completely disagree with this for two reasons:

1. In most cases, they haven't "done nothing." They tried something, and they didn't succeed as well as they would have liked. We don't know why they didn't succeed. Maybe they're new to the fight, or maybe they haven't done the fight in a long time. The alternative is for everyone to stop DPS while the player gets raised or to wipe the fight and start over so you can try again with that person playing to their full potential. No one wants to do that in the roulette.

2. You're acting as if rewarding that person is somehow taking away something from more deserving people. It's not. This is a video game. The rewards are created digitally with no additional resources required. It's not like a real life job where the company has limited resources to dole out and an underperformer is simply leeching resources that could have gone to more deserving employees.



Then why are you wasting your time playing video games? The whole point of a video game is a participation reward. It's not like you're actually saving the world or honing your fencing skills while hacking away at virtual bad guys.

For your first point I see the issue, for me trying and failing is still failing amounts to an 0 in terms of tangible rewards. Sure it is a learning experience but until I complete the task or the goal I do not expect to be rewarded just for trying. I have seen people in roulette wipe a group to remove the floor tank, and in our static if a person is dead for the clear on farm runs unless it is prog they do not get to roll on said loot.

As for your second point you are right they are just digital items so why does it matter if someone who has done nothing does not get a chance to roll on the reward or gets a reward?

Video games are like any hobby so your last question seems extremely disingenuous. That said I will never understand why people willfully want to half ass a hobby they apparently enjoy.