The New Sage Icon, Thoughts?

[Lauront]

Nothing this miniscule ever effects the game design, it hasn't since 2.0's launch.

Given your word choice, there appears to be some manner of mental fog here - for you to refer to it as minuscule, you must be referring to the icon change itself or believe that such reasoning wouldn't be extended beyond that. To the former: again, is not the issue that many have with this, but rather the reasoning invoked and responded to. To the latter: alas, I am rather disinclined to just take your word for it, that such reasoning won't affect future design decisions (particularly visually), or that it hasn't since 2.0. It certainly has under other pretexts, e.g. Chinese cultural sensitivities and the design of undead (hence the general absence of skeletons outside of Tam Tara), or the fear of players feeling "stressed" when healing or tanking being a factor in role design and healers’ simplistic rotations, as well as giving into player concerns about certain of their favourites being killed off, amongst other things, all of which can be gleaned from interviews scattered all across the landscape.

The proof will be in the pudding with 6.0 and what comes after. I would rather that such concerns were unfounded, and they may well be, e.g. if this is merely a strategic business move, but your say-so in this regard won't suffice to convince me of that.

CLEARLY some people very much care about the icon, we're on page 26 and we're apparently not on a slippery slope anymore but in Action Park about to break every bone in our bodies going down it because they made a UI change and who knows what they'll do next? Listen to more player requests? Perish the thought...

No, there's three separate issues being discussed here: 1) whether the icon would even trigger the so-called phobia as well as how consistent they are about it; 2) the design of the icon itself; and 3) whether the principle will be extended to other areas of game design (particularly visually), particularly in 6.0 and beyond, when the story is due to break from the grittier story elements of ARR that 6.0 is wrapping up.

Most of the discussion here is centering on 1) and 3), not so much 2). Certainly, the correct interpretation of Theodric’s original post is 3).

Personally, I made it clear from the outset I don't really care about the icon much in and of itself. I never liked the original icon and it continues, unfortunately, to look bad to me.

However, there's more than a few here who doubt that this phobia (and it is debatable if it is one in the usual sense) would be triggered to the degree claimed by that icon; I certainly consider that claim to be dubious, as someone who actually experiences this sense of disgust – that is, when the imagery is actually up to the task to "trigger" it. If some want to adopt the rather typical stance of "you don't get to judge how someone is affected by a phobia or isn't", let's apply that consistently and give the other ones, like aichmophobia a fair shot. Not that I’d want that affecting game design, but you know…

Also, I don't think anyone advocating for them to listen to player requests has ever made the argument they should entertain each and every one. They are aware of the fact that they're making competing demands on the devs. Out of that process, there will be winners and losers, and mostly arguments arise over competing visions for the game and uses of resources. We know this from how the design of male Viera turned out, for example. At a certain point, the threshold is reached where certain players find the game is no longer for them, and before reaching that point, rather than being the frog that doesn't even realise it's being boiled, they speak out against such changes. You saw as much with the male Viera, and granted, you were courteous about expressions of disappointment with the design. Nonetheless, unanimity will not be achieved on such matters and the devs are surely aware of this complexity each time they grant a request. Yoshi identified it himself when discussing the matter of removing genderlocks.

To touch on the second part of your question about gender restrictions, first and foremost, I think there should be freedom in your values when it comes to the different genders. We don’t want to restrict attire and clothing that you wear based on characters’ gender or sex.

There’s two issues for accommodating that freedom. The first is a cost issue. Say you had a dress and it’s originally restricted to female-only and we were considering making it so male characters could wear it. We need to go in and make sure we’re adjusting the design on a male character model and make sure it makes sense on that form. The opposite applies for male only outfits, for instance Hien’s attire. we’d need to make adjustments for the female silhouette...We’d need to adjust for lalafells...If we’re making adjustments to one or two items, that’s easy. But we need to consider just how many items there are, and addressing all of them is not a quick task.

In terms of values and our players, it’s a time when there’s a lot of changes in perspectives, but we can’t ignore the people who refuse to make changes in their values. There may be players who do not want to see male players wear attire that’s traditionally worn on females...We do want to respect freedom of self expression and that people want to dress the same way, but we do need to consider and be mindful of those who look at people dressed in a certain way and manage how they perceive things.

Let me give an example: I was heading to the office on a Saturday and I saw a situation that made me very sad. I was trying to go into the office and I was waiting at a red light. I saw a high schooler coming from the other side of the road in their school uniform. It seemed that they were biologically male at birth but they were wearing a sailor fuku, which is traditionally female attire. In Japanese high schools, there’s more and more schools that are accommodating for freedom of not being restricted to a specific gender for your uniform...That person probably wanted to present the gender they identified with in their heart...On the other side of the road was a mother and a daughter. The daughter was perhaps 5 years old. As soon as the mother saw the high schooler, she shielded her daughter as if she didn’t want her daughter to see. The high schooler must have been very hurt. Situations like these still happen and there’s areas where there’s not as much understanding.

We need to see more change in the values people have, and we need to consider for Final Fantasy XIV how we push forward in-game and how we represent it.

That being said, we want to address this, and I think it will be gradual...For instance, for the Ceremony of Eternal Bonding, we’ve already started to make adjustments. Once we officially release this, you won’t have gender restrictions. If you both wanted to wear a dress, that’s perfectly fine. If you want to both wear the tuxedo, that would also be fine...That’s not available in game yet, but we have done the preparations for it.

You may be familiar with the [Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Parade] where we had a Final Fantasy XIV float participate. After that event, players in the Korean regions were very uncomfortable with it and people made complaints about now wanting to see that. “This is disgusting!” Things like that. It’s been very tough.

Change is happening. People are becoming more aware and understanding. Values do shift, but I think the pace...is very different depending on individuals. It’s a difficult and delicate situation. It requires us to understand and know how things are around the world.

So they're not oblivious to the mixed reception certain changes can have... and once more, this discussion is not just limited to the icon design in and of itself (which we can agree is trivial), but the other things I mentioned as well. To proceed on the basis that this is all about an icon’s look is a trifle inaccurate, and in the case of some posts (not you), disingenuous.

I wanna play the JRPG's you're talking about here, cause you just listed several common tropes, all your missing is the power of love and friendship saving the day.

Not all of them implement the theme, and not all of them interpret it the same way. Caius from 13 is notable for achieving his ends and forcing the protagonist into a difficult situation (a bit like Hydaelyn sundering the world and the Ascians...), and in 12, Venat’s success in fact dooms the world to an eventual dark age, with the protagonists playing into Venat’s hands (the game opens with the death of Vaan’s brother); Vagrant Story, a particularly dark JRPG, is linked to the world resulting from that. 15 itself is a pretty dark FF as well. Parasite Eve laid on the body horror thick. Type-0 was particularly brutal as well. To say nothing of the Drakengard and Nier series. But a few notable examples.

In any case, that trope shouldn’t compromise the feel of an apocalypse, and I have to confess, depending on that implementation, it can be the one I care for least. It’s a little odd to me that you’d ask if it’s Kizuya’s first JRPG – surely you are aware of these examples? Outliers or not, they are nonetheless renowned JRPGs.

ff2,ff4,ff5,ff7,ff12,ff13 just to name a few. it's just strange to me that the expansion advertised as the darkest and grimmest one yet, where we face the toughest foes yet, is the expansion with the least amount of consequences for the protags and with seemingly the most humor. Its especially odd when almost every ff game has had consequences in one form or the other. It feels very much like a 14 thing.

Exactly. No matter how ‘dark’ the game is in narrative terms, if there is lack of follow through in the consequences beyond the antagonist deaths, it ultimately loses a sense of threat.

Graha was a mistake, we all know that, he should have died.

Couldn’t agree more – hopefully there’s still a chance of it.

More impactful, yes, but I don't know if it's a positive thing or not. The thing that piss me off is that him surviving is clearly due to being the fan's favorite. Two things that I have problem with:

1) the Exarch merging his memories AND soul to young g'raha is morally questionable, and were it attempted by other npc people probably will riot.

2) why merging with the Exarch suddenly makes current g'raha to be super OP? Before sleeping, he was more of a Scholar than fighter and his weapon is a bow. Now he suddenly a caster? Since when did he got photographic memory that even able to remember the cure for freaking tempering in just seconds? As the Exarch he's able to fight only because he link himself to the crystal tower and also use Allagan tech.

Merging memories is the equivalent of the Echo, which never gave indication that it strengthen the echo user. Merging soul is the equivalent of rejoining, which again, doesn't mean you're stronger after that.

And speaking of Crystal Tower... Why did we wake g'raha now? The Eorzean still haven't reach a technological age where they can use the CT, it was the future time line who did. And now g'raha isn't asleep anymore, what if he died or his Allagan blood lost its effect? The CT will be unguarded and unusable to us.

Re: 1, we can go further than "probably" - some people did with Mitron, even twisting the entire situation out of all proportion to achieve that result. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if the authors go back and write it so it was all consensual, even if one of the lead writers for SHB is famous for having the player characters grapple with the gravity of their decisions in her own quest lines for DRK.

[Yencat]

Personally, I made it clear from the outset I don't really care about the icon much in and of itself. I never liked the original icon and it continues, unfortunately, to look bad to me.

However, there's more than a few here who doubt that this phobia (and it is debatable if it is one in the usual sense) would be triggered to the degree claimed by that icon; I certainly consider that claim to be dubious, as someone who actually experiences this sense of disgust – that is, when the imagery is actually up to the task to "trigger" it. If some want to adopt the rather typical stance of "you don't get to judge how someone is affected by a phobia or isn't", let's apply that consistently and give the other ones, like aichmophobia a fair shot. Not that I’d want that affecting game design, but you know…

Also, I don't think anyone advocating for them to listen to player requests has ever made the argument they should entertain each and every one. They are aware of the fact that they're making competing demands on the devs. Out of that process, there will be winners and losers, and mostly arguments arise over competing visions for the game and uses of resources. We know this from how the design of male Viera turned out, for example. At a certain point, the threshold is reached where certain players find the game is no longer for them, and before reaching that point, rather than being the frog that doesn't even realise it's being boiled, they speak out against such changes. You saw as much with the male Viera, and granted, you were courteous about expressions of disappointment with the design. Nonetheless, unanimity will not be achieved on such matters and the devs are surely aware of this complexity each time they grant a request. Yoshi identified it himself when discussing the matter of removing genderlocks.



So they're not oblivious to the mixed reception certain changes can have... and once more, this discussion is not just limited to the icon design in and of itself (which we can agree is trivial), but the other things I mentioned as well. To proceed on the basis that this is all about an icon’s look is a trifle inaccurate, and in the case of some posts (not you), disingenuous.

You can and should be skeptical of companies and their actions, but to even draw parallels between this and the Blizz situation and almost gleefully use that type of abuse and heartache as a bat to take swings at SE with is incredibly inappropriate. I don't think that's a controversial take on my part and I'll stand by it.

I also have doubts about how big of an issue this phobia was for people that they had to change the icon, but at the end of the day does it really matter? If they said they changed it because people (like yourself, and myself as well) thought it was ugly would that have made a difference? I think it looks a little better but still not great, is it pandering if they change or tweak it again based on that? Would it be such a scandal then as well?

Yes, I do genuinely think it sucks for you and others that were disappointed with how male viera came out looking, especially after how vocal you had all been to see them added. But to repeatedly lash out, belittle, and mock these "vocal minorities" that allegedly influenced and ruined male viera is unnecessary. It's also completely discounting the very real possibility that people at SE probably also had their own vision for how they were supposed to look and looking at fanart comfirmed this was something (some? I keep seeing minority but I don't think anyone actually has these numbers) players would be open to seeing. It certainly wasn't how Matsuno had envisioned them, but he wasn't involved in their design. And let's be completely honest with ourselves here, had Matsuno envisioned them as dainty tiny little waifs we'd be talking about how this is FFXIV and that vision should be disregarded.