This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

[Awha]

Define normal in a non-subjective way. Some people may say that everyone needs to play in a way that the group can finish the dungeon in 15 minutes. Others may say that it's normal if the dungeon is finished in 20 minutes. Some think it's normal to stand in AoEs and the healer should adjust because their dps is more important. Some think it's normal to get out of the AoEs and not take those avoidable hits.

With such a variety of skill levels and experience and, yes, sometimes ability, there is no set definition of "normal" in a PuG situation. There are just people who bring their own preconceived ideas about what *their* perfect run is, but it's all subjective. Normal for any given PuG group is what it takes for that particular combination of levels and experiences to get through the run. That's why it doesn't work to try to apply the parameters of success from other combinations of people to another randomly matched group, because the factors are different. The only way to get the exact situation that is someone's subjective idea of normal is to have a preformed group where everyone understands everyone else's skill level and ability so they know exactly what to expect from the others and how to react.

I'm a code monkey, so in my world, a common idea is that different inputs to the same formula is always going to equal different outcomes. I never go into a group expecting the same experience as the last one because it's completely different people.

I am also into coding and I do understand that their are many different paths that can lead to the same result. Some are more elaborate others are basic some are down right cleaver. So what they all share is they got to the end goal they designed what they wanted to design.

Thing is why should failing repeatedly and getting to the end despite objectively failing to meet the game standard of being able to execute the movements required to get through the encounter while simultaneously performing their assigned roles basic rotation?

In terms of objective standard for normal being able to do mechanics prog and learning parties being an exception while performing the basic function of their role. That is what I mean by what is considered normal by the game. By having pre-defined roles the game is already presenting us with an objective standard.

End of the day I do not think it is unfair to expect a damage dealer to do more damage then a tank or healer when it comes to single target damage, or for a tank to be able to hold aggro while pressing buttons etc . . . expecting the bare minimum is not asking for a lot and i am sorry if someone is unable to do the bare minimum of their role at that point why use roulette.

Yes both sides can use PF though which is the more reasonable standard using PF if someone cannot perform the basic function of their role or using PF to avoid people that cannot perform tye basic function of their role.

[Rinhi]

Nah, it's more like "the current CT raids were never required before ShadowBringers, and new level 50 players will be asked to complete it with gear suitable for level 50 players, while everyone else outgears the raid to the extent that they can ignore mechanics, except when they can't, or shouldn't"

if that's your excuse for it, be my guest, but considering the raids finish just as quickly with groups filled with sprouts in non-poetics gear when they press their glowing buttons when compared to the average one that's filled with high ilvl vet groups, I'm inclined to disagree, the only thing holding them back is usually just not knowing the mechs which may result in a wipe which turns into a non-issue when they figure it out or it's explained
on the other hand, I've seen groups filled with mentors and people with multiple 80s and crystarium/exarch/cryptlurker gear stand around and do absolutely nothing because "my ilvl will carry me" with increasing frequency lately, so our mileages may vary when it comes to CT raids /shrug

[Hanayumi]

When it comes to any content below the difficulty of EX or Savage, devs just really do not care on the quality of the player that gets through said content they're much more inclined towards the quantity of players getting through...

[Krotoan]

I mean none of that isn't unnecessarily true.

It's immensely untrue that if you talk you will get banned. This is an absolute. Its POSSIBLE that if you talk AND you insult or offend someone AND they report it, you might get actioned. This possibility is true.. Talk= eventual ban is not.

There are Toxic people in the FFXIV community as everywhere but EVERYONE (in fact I would go so far as to say MOST people) is not automatically interacting with the worst possible motivations.

The only example I gave that may have some validity to the consequence is the ERP one. If you never want to encounter an ERP player or want to REDUCE the chance of happening into that world you can avoid the servers they're concentrated on.. but it's not like you eliminate the chance entirely.


The problem being that the overblown, hyperbolic narrative that is spread causes undue paranoia and causes people to have unwarranted or poisoned interactions. Just because there is a grain of truth to the source.. does not mean the toxic declaration or narrative is "true" .

Initially people associated one server with RP so they could easily group up with like minded people, why is that different when used in a negative connotation?

Addressed above, but for comprehensive readings sake I will repeat: Because you aren't eliminating all chances, you're simply reducing them whereas the opposite is also true, you aren't unable to RP on other worlds just because they aren't the unofficial ones, you just increase your chances. ERP avoidance being probably the weakest one.

Not to mention that the GMs feed into this hysteria by not following a strict enough guideline.

I think the anti-erp movement and hysteria was largely created BY players who were crusading against them and forcing the hand of GM's who were ill prepared for that particular case. Most other GM enforcements are pretty solid.

And you will get banned eventually if you're not talking in a semi professional manner.
Crude words whether aimed or not aimed at a particular object or person will eventually get you in trouble in this game.

You don't even need to talk in a "semi-professional" manner. You just can't speak to everyone as if you know them. You cannot "banter" with or around strangers, so again.. interaction at all does not = eventual ban. I don't even know why people HAVE to use crude words in any chat that a passerby can experience.

The difference here is I have no guarantee of compensation and I also take on a permanent possible account risk.

When I learn how to drive and buy a car I know the guaranteed pros and possible consequences that it will bring to me, however the pros out weigh the cons by landslide.

You have no guarantee your car ride will be that much more convenient and death or serious injury is pretty permanent. You have no guarantee that buying and learning to drive a car guarantees use of that car (hoo boy the stories I have to tell you about that) or guarantees convenience.

ASIDE FROM THE POINT THOUGH.. that while you can avoid consequences by removing ALL possibility of them, cutting yourself off from entire possible avenues of enjoyment and enrichment is a very very extreme way to do this and advising OTHERS to do the same assuming the same values as you is a harmful narrative to their possible future enjoyment AND it paints interaction and risk in the FFXIV community in an unfair and negative light.

If it helps you understand where I'm coming from. I would rather countless murderers roam free than have a single innocent person be in-prisoned. E.G. I would rather not help anyone than have the possibility of getting a strike regardless of how low and improbable. The possibility to me. Is. Unacceptable.

I'm not telling you to stop guarding yourself.. I'm suggesting you let others find their own truth instead of spreading fear.

I didn't say 'any helping gets you reported.' And I wasn't giving advice - advice was given both prior-to and during the fights. That advice was ignored. Only then did criticism follow. And I don't really care if people respond to that blanket criticism negatively.

But you didn't criticize. What you did was just insult everyone. It didn't help and it wasn't necessary and you being "surprised" that they didn't take it well is .. well.. telling. You are apparently oblivious to the difference between valid criticism and being snarky and that is the source of part of your frustration with how people react to you.

My problem is the people who rush to the defense of inadequacy rather than being ashamed by it. It's always been an enormous problem in FFXIV, and it only seems to be getting worse with time.

Has it? That really hasn't been my experience any more so in FFXIV than any other MMO or multiplayer game now or in the past. There will always be a % of bad players and that cannot be helped, there will always be people on all points in the curve, that's just how humans work. The only difference I've noticed is that here in FFXIV people don't tend to stomp on people who aren't performing to their standards. Now you see this as a failing. "Why aren't they shaming people into improving? THey're letting people "GET AWAY" with doing less! Why doesn't everyone try to make the people not performing to my standards feel bad about it?". I see this as just a more relaxed environment to game in.

Because the culture here is one of acceptance and tolerance and as weird and coddling as that might seem to you, it makes the community a more attractive place for quite a few people and a popular game is a successful one.

It's as if people want to make excuses for every shortcoming imaginable - oh, were you drunk? High? New? Checking on the baby? Rolling your face around on your dog's tummy? Answering the door for pizza? Blind? Half blind? Half asleep? Fully asleep? Don't worry - if the answer as to why you're bad isn't listed, we'll find it. Better that than acknowledging the truth.

The "truth" I've experienced in years and years of playing this game has mostly been that occasionally I encounter people who care far too much if a particular run takes 14-20 more minutes than it "should" and take that as a license to insult and abuse others and then they get shocked for some reason when people react defensively to that.

You have control over your experience and not over theirs and in the end that is all you should be allowed to manage. You might argue they're influencing your experience by stubbornly doing it their way, but you have the choice to leave and SE has kept the punishment for doing so rather shallow. You can also attempt to teach but as I've noticed a lot of people think teaching means shaming or insulting people into doing things the way they like.. that avenue is likely to get you punished in the end as well.

So while you can flail and harangue and tell yourself over and over that these people are the downfall of the game... I've found the truly "bad" to be rare and instead wonder if the problem is encountered everywhere you go, it might be your perspective and not the people.

[Ronduwil]

There are people in this game who get offended for "teaching" sprouts and will say "you are the reason people don't like to tank" when explaining to sprouts that pulling mobs until you die isn't a bad thing, you won't know your limits unless you try, proceed troll your run by pulling mobs for the tank when they don't get their way and then not see the hypocrisy of their statements.

The sprout already knows that it's possible to pull beyond their comfort level. They just don't want to do it. No one's "teaching" anybody anything here. They're trying to impose their preferences on the tank. Some people like running the instance at a breakneck speed as if their queue popped a moment before they realized they urgently had to use the restroom, and others like to take their time and relax through their gaming experience. I agreed with Zepla when she said something to the effect of, "If you don't like the tank's pace, then play as a tank next time." I personally hate it when tanks rush through instances, but I grin and bear it because I realize that their preferences are what they are.

[Ronduwil]

When I just in general said 'wow, that's the first time a group has ever wiped on that in history,' suddenly it's "OH, YOU'RE TOXIC AF! IMAGINE BEING SO UPSET! - KICK THIS TROLL."

So here's the thing about criticism IRL as well as in game: no one likes to hear about problems; they want to hear solutions. "Wow, that's the first time a group has ever wiped on that in history," doesn't do anything to prevent a future wipe. It just pisses everyone off. Next time, instead of complaining about what happened, make suggestions regarding what should happen going forward to keep it from happening again. That's the difference between sounding helpful and sounding "toxic AF." "Wow, that's the first time a group has ever wiped on that in history," is not going to be anywhere near as well received as, "We dropped too many meteors in the very back of the raid. Please scoot up if you're targeted."

It's not a matter of shutting up and letting people "leech." Just don't waste everyone's time with disparaging comments and focus on providing constructive feedback.

[Ronduwil]

If you want to penalize people who, in your opinion, are "bad" in this game, perhaps its time to find another game.

Good luck in your search. I don't know any MMOs with a strict policy of "no unsatisfactory players need apply".

WoW, in its current form, has that policy now. The "no unsatisfactory players need apply" philosophy steadily culls the least skilled players with no regard for the fact that "least skilled" is a relative measure. In the end you're left a very small group of good players and fantastic players, but the good players come to be regarded as unskilled because their parses are on the lower end of the percentile range because percentiles are a measure of performance with respect to the current population rather than true performance. That's why FFXIV got promoted from an MMO that I occasionally dabbled in to the only MMO I play now. That kind of environment is just too stressful for an activity that is supposed to serve as a leisurely pastime. I don't need performance reviews, deadlines, and merit-based raises built into my MMO. If you're one of those players who does, then definitely give WoW a try. I like this game's system as-is. If other players are underperforming, I relish the challenge of stepping up my own game and/or leadership to get us over the finish line.

[Bd09live]

So far while leveling and doing MSQ stuff and raids, every time i wiped us (as tank), the people just said "hey, this is what is happening" and we tried it again. I like that sort of approach being a new player still to this game. But i get if people mess up a lot or are just afking or something, then i understand when people could get annoyed.

FF14 seems to have a higher ceiling for when people lash out then wow or lol does, which i praise ff14 for.

[Nethereal]

The sprout already knows that it's possible to pull beyond their comfort level. They just don't want to do it. No one's "teaching" anybody anything here. They're trying to impose their preferences on the tank. Some people like running the instance at a breakneck speed as if their queue popped a moment before they realized they urgently had to use the restroom, and others like to take their time and relax through their gaming experience. I agreed with Zepla when she said something to the effect of, "If you don't like the tank's pace, then play as a tank next time." I personally hate it when tanks rush through instances, but I grin and bear it because I realize that their preferences are what they are.

Comfort level =/= your limit.

Your comfort level or your comfort zone is safe, plenty of people like to stay in their comfort zone and plenty of people leave it but you need to teach newbies that their comfort level/zone does not equate to their limits.
You need to desensitize them early before they start getting healer/tank anxiety because of one bad pull.
They need to be taught to not be afraid of experimenting, not coddled like children who can't tell people when they're uncomfortable.

[Ronduwil]

It sounds like you're playing with the intent to push your limits. Assuming that everyone is playing with that goal in mind is a big mistake. Many of us are playing to relax at the end of a long workday, not to push our limits. A comfortable run is a relaxing one. I know that there are guilds who share a common goal of constantly pushing their limits, and that's perfectly fine. More power to them and to you. In duty roulette, though, you need to realize that you're going to be playing with a wide variety of players.

As far as "teaching" and "coddling," I don't think it's the game's place to "teach" players to experiment. I think it's great that the game enables players who want to experiment in their own groups, but I don't want it forced on anyone. When I see your posts, I'm reading, "Everyone needs to be taught to play my way, and I'm frustrated that the game isn't forcing everyone to do so." It's kind of ironic for you to critically use the phrase, "coddled like children," when describing a game that's rated T for teen. You're playing a kid's game. I don't know what more you're expecting out of it.