This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

[Awha]

You may, of course, choose to kick the player. Just don't get all sanctimonious about it.

Unless you queue with a preformed group of 3/7 other people, there is no "group". There is you and a bunch of strangers of varying skill levels seeking a common goal. How you approach that goal yourself says more than any 'leet skillz' you might possess.

The strangers form a group with the assumed goal of clearing the content. That shared goal is the banner under which the group was formed. Sure it might just be a temporary alliance but it is one nonetheless. Though not sure if the sanctimonious comment was aimed towards me if I may ask in what way am I being sanctimonious with my stance?

Personally, I feel that if you're viewing the game in terms of a job where you're trying to produce something and you're constantly measuring your own productivity relative to other players' in order to later make a case to some imaginary in-game boss that you deserve a promotion and/or raise, you're just going to have a bad time. The way I see it, when I'm playing the game, I'm a hero fighting the boss, and I hope that I can contribute enough to the group to enable it to kill said boss. Sometimes my contributions fall short of my potential, and other times my comrades fail to contribute to their full potential. As long as we kill the boss, though, I call it a victory, and I'm happy with that. I don't dwell on productivity or lack thereof. I get more than enough of that IRL, and I don't need it in my game. I don't think about fights in terms of who's carrying who. I just want to defeat the boss. If the group wipes, I will pipe up with suggestions on things we could have done better, but other than that, I'm happy to have the opportunity to perform heroic feats, and my party members falling short is simply an opportunity for me to display further heroism.

That is fair I get that stance, everyone has different means of enjoying a hobby I tend to go above and beyond when it comes to my hobbies. Though this just makes me wondering is the fear of abuse which from a statistical side is far less likely to happen when you compare the possibility of negative experiences with parsing against neutral and postive encounters. Couldn't both sides coexist if GM's just did their job, or is the potential for harm which again from a pure numbers perspective would be rather small in the grand scheme verse the amount good providing such tools especially if they had an ingame one for those on console?

[DPZ2]

Though not sure if the sanctimonious comment was aimed towards me if I may ask in what way am I being sanctimonious with my stance?

The Christian tenet "when you pray, go to your room and close the door" helps to avoid sanctimonious display.

You personally haven't been that person, since your comments indicate you initiate a kick when necessary and then are silent. So, no, it wasn't aimed at you.

The vibe I get from a number of folks who are reading and posting is that they'd be more than happy to explain, in great detail, the whys and wherefores of a vote kick to another player in-game if they could get away with that behaviour. They are certainly not silent in the forums. Although I have to wonder where they have such bad luck in instances, as I've never had reason to kick someone except for disconnecting and not coming back in a reasonable amount of time.

Of course there was that one time when our tank deliberately quit after apparently getting the gear drop they needed from the first boss fight in the Vault ...

[Snorky]

Thanks so much for the link

[ForteNightshade]

You misunderstood what I said. My point was that even if we were to take their "good" intentions at face value, the remedies that were proposed fly in the face of those intentions. The point you're making is precisely what I was getting at. For a thread that claims to exclusively target "lazy" players, it sure feels like it's targeting new, returning, and lesser skilled players.

Only for those with a poor interpretation of what's being suggested. For the sake of argument, let's use the FATE system in its current form. New players can easily get sufficient credit so long as they perform. Admittedly, it's hilariously easy to get credit since it's all aggro based. However, the point remains a system like what has been purposed likely wouldn't have a high bar to reach. Just enough of one where someone standing around doing nothing or spamming 123 and nothing else won't get the same credit as someone putting forth a full effort. No one is asking for top tier performances here but reasonable contribution. A healer standing around doing nothing besides spamming Medica II isn't contributing. They're getting carried. This isn't a skill issue, it's a lack of willingness from the player to take any initiative into how their job functions.

Put simply. If I could pull up a guide while leveling Dragoon to 60 back in Heavensward when I first started so I had a vague understanding of my abilities, how I should be utilizing them and so forth. Why can't you? It didn't take me more than an hour to get my bearings. Was I good? Nope. But I was competent. That's all anyone is asking for. Competence.

[Colt47]

I'd call it the mountain out of a molehill scenario. The real reason stuff is taking longer to clear right now is that I've seen a lot of newer players in the content while the people who were doing it earlier with the huge damage boosts have moved on. I still jump in and do stuff but I always have my expectations set.

[Nethereal]

I mean it sounds you had bad experiences with it so i don't blame you at all for reacting that strong. And i do believe there are many trolls etc. out there using rhetorical devices as an excuse to just insult people. I just like to use rhetoric and stuff like sarcasm etc. to lighten the mood since people get always way too serious in debates etc.. So no hard feelings, i am actually used to it since stuff like sarcasm is basically made to be misunderstood but i am stuborn and refuse to become more serious so it often ends in these ways where i fish out the one person that takes offense in it by accident. Since i really don't mean any harm at all and just want to make some peoples day a bit brighter.

So yeah, no problem at all! And hey, my main alt char will be soon a bunny so maybe then i see how the world up there looks like. Down here it always looks like a forest made out of legs. ^^'

You definitely want to be more expressive with how you use sarcasm online. Especially in these forums.

[StriderShinryu]

I am greatly confused as to what people want really.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's pretty simple.

1.) I want players to stop treating other players as "the enemy" just because they aren't playing up to their standards when they themselves are the ones choosing to do casual content with a randomly selected group of players. Just because they aren't playing as well as you want them to, it doesn't mean they're intentionally trolling you, leeching from you, wasting your time, ruining your game experience, etc.

2.) I want players to be more open to actually being considerate and helping others who are clearly struggling rather than hiding behind the blatant and embarrassing excuse of "try to give advice = get banned" when that basically never happens.

3.) I want the game to do a better job of teaching players how to play and what is intended from their role without forcing them to do research outside of the actual game, and this can come alongside some content in the game acting as a hard lock (like requiring a Hall of the Intermediate before doing any level 50 MSQ content)

[TaleraRistain]

You misunderstood what I said. My point was that even if we were to take their "good" intentions at face value, the remedies that were proposed fly in the face of those intentions. The point you're making is precisely what I was getting at. For a thread that claims to exclusively target "lazy" players, it sure feels like it's targeting new, returning, and lesser skilled players.

I didn't misunderstand what you said. I was using one of the examples you posted to refute someone who was trying to claim that nobody in this thread was asking for things to be taken away. They absolutely were and your post was right before the one I was responding to with a perfect example of someone who didn't want people to get rewards if they didn't meet a "basic decency level".

[TaleraRistain]

Unless are we saying that we should just assume that everyone who is unable to pass a certain mechanic has an impairment that prevents them from playing to a certain level that is considered normal within the game?

Define normal in a non-subjective way. Some people may say that everyone needs to play in a way that the group can finish the dungeon in 15 minutes. Others may say that it's normal if the dungeon is finished in 20 minutes. Some think it's normal to stand in AoEs and the healer should adjust because their dps is more important. Some think it's normal to get out of the AoEs and not take those avoidable hits.

With such a variety of skill levels and experience and, yes, sometimes ability, there is no set definition of "normal" in a PuG situation. There are just people who bring their own preconceived ideas about what *their* perfect run is, but it's all subjective. Normal for any given PuG group is what it takes for that particular combination of levels and experiences to get through the run. That's why it doesn't work to try to apply the parameters of success from other combinations of people to another randomly matched group, because the factors are different. The only way to get the exact situation that is someone's subjective idea of normal is to have a preformed group where everyone understands everyone else's skill level and ability so they know exactly what to expect from the others and how to react.

I'm a code monkey, so in my world, a common idea is that different inputs to the same formula is always going to equal different outcomes. I never go into a group expecting the same experience as the last one because it's completely different people.

[Nethereal]

2.) I want players to be more open to actually being considerate and helping others who are clearly struggling rather than hiding behind the blatant and embarrassing excuse of "try to give advice = get banned" when that basically never happens.

It's a strike, 3 and you're out(permanent ban). They are permanent and will never be removed. A ban is highly unlikely.

"Helping someone" or "offering advice" in-game at the possible expense of getting a strike on your account will never be worth it. I will however extensively help people via discord. In-game though? I'll explain what things do at most.

You're more likely to get 2nd hand reported from what I've seen.