How would you feel if shields had no upfront healing?

[Brandedblade]

The trouble with such high-potency shields is that they would enable parties to cheese mechanics. Think of the "merry-go-round doggos" in e10s. A lot of parties just stack shields and mitigation so they can ignore the mechanics and maintain uptime. With higher potency shields, this sort of thing would become more common. (I think this may be the reason why they don't allow Noct AST shields and SCH shields to stack.)

A potential work-around that comes in mind to this specific issue is making said shields only mitigate a percentage of incoming damage. This is how Rift handled its shield healers, shields would only block about 75-80% of damage and outside of massive cooldowns always capped at 50% of the targets max HP. But Rift also essentially worked from a tank healer (uses shields and powerful single target heals to help tanks mitigate their damage) or raid healer (utilize hots and aoe heals to sustain groups through aoe ambient damage) dichotomy with it's design.

[Dearche]

To be honest, I find it strange that people complain about healing not being engaging and challenging when the game does provide content that is engaging and challenging to heal. It's like they're saying "I want to be challenged as a healer but I don't want to do the challenging content".

This isn't really about being challenging though. It's about being engaging.

Why is every DPS job engaging regardless of the difficulty of content, yet every single healer job isn't unless if you're playing an ultimate, which is designed for less than 1% of the player base? I dip into DRG as a side job and I find that engaging 100% of the time, even when I'm just farming roulettes for some tomestones. And that's a job that most DPS seem to think is one of the least engaging jobs amongst them.

This would be a much better argument if we could say that at least half of all healers feel that playing healing is engaging regardless of content difficulty, but it's a hard sell when playing healer means playing a glare mage 90% of the time.

[BungleBear]

This isn't really about being challenging though. It's about being engaging.

I would have thought that there's a correlation between being challenging and being engaging. More challenging content requires you to think more, to pay closer attention, to be more engaged.

Why is every DPS job engaging regardless of the difficulty of content, yet every single healer job isn't unless if you're playing an ultimate, which is designed for less than 1% of the player base?

First, I don't believe it's true for all players that healing is only engaging in ultimate. When I was less experienced, I found casual content more engaging. I'm sure there are other players out there who are like I was then. When casual content ceased being engaging for me, I progressed to more difficult content.

Second, I don't believe that DPS jobs are equally engaging at all levels of difficulty. Is it engaging to DPS against a striking dummy? Maybe when you've just started playing the job and you're still learning the rotation. But once you've got the rotation down, attacking a striking dummy is very unengaging. Maintaining your rotation while also executing mechanics is more engaging, and of course higher level content has more difficult mechanics.

I dip into DRG as a side job and I find that engaging 100% of the time, even when I'm just farming roulettes for some tomestones. And that's a job that most DPS seem to think is one of the least engaging jobs amongst them.

Perhaps this is because you're not a very experienced DRG? This really supports the point I'm trying to make. How engaging you find a job will depend on (a) how much experience you have playing the job, and (b) how difficult is the content you're doing. A lack of engagement may result from a mismatch between the experience of the player and the difficulty of the content. The solution is to do harder content (or switch to another job on which you're less experienced).

[Semirhage]

That's a valid point, but I'd also submit that Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is also pretty unengaging in itself, content difficulty aside.

[BungleBear]

That's a valid point, but I'd also submit that Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is also pretty unengaging in itself, content difficulty aside.

I wouldn't measure the level of engagement by the variety of buttons you're pressing. I think engagement has more to do with thought and attention. An activity that can be performed while watching Netflix requires little thought or attention, and is therefore not very engaging. Of course repeatedly pressing one button, when considered in a vacuum, is not very engaging. But I'd say the same is true, albeit perhaps to a lesser extent, for a more complicated rotation after you've committed it to muscle memory. To keep things engaging, you need something else to think about, e.g. mechanics. Healers, unlike DPS, have another thing to think about, i.e. healing. So it makes sense that they have simpler rotations. Are they too simple now? Personally, I don't feel very strongly about this. I actually think they're fine now, but I also wouldn't mind an extra dot or something.

[Dearche]

I would have thought that there's a correlation between being challenging and being engaging. More challenging content requires you to think more, to pay closer attention, to be more engaged.

First, I don't believe it's true for all players that healing is only engaging in ultimate.

As the famous saying goes: correlation does not equate causation.

Candy Crush isn't challenging, but it's still engaging to many people. Harvest moon isn't challenging at all, but it's hella engaging for a large percentage of gamers. You do not need to be challenged to feel engaged. Challenge helps for sure, but it's not neccessary.

Second, I don't believe that DPS jobs are equally engaging at all levels of difficulty.

This is a strawman. I never suggested that they're equally engaging at all. Just look at the DPS boards and you'll see all the complaints regarding certain DPS jobs. But unlike here, I don't see a single thread talking about how it sucks to be your favourite role.

Perhaps this is because you're not a very experienced DRG?

I won't deny that. I spend more than 90% of my ingame time as a healer, so naturally I won't be as good as a DPS even if I've been playing it since ARR (in fact, I was a DRG before I even picked up a healer job)

The solution is to do harder content (or switch to another job on which you're less experienced).

This is another strawman.

The issue is that playing a healer (any healer)isn't engaging without jumping right into the hardest content. Frankly speaking, that says more about the content than the role, as healing high end raids isn't fun. It's the running around doing mechanics that's fun.

And when all the healers are so simplified, there isn't another healer job I can switch to that I can feel engaged playing.

[BungleBear]

As the famous saying goes: correlation does not equate causation.

Candy Crush isn't challenging, but it's still engaging to many people. Harvest moon isn't challenging at all, but it's hella engaging for a large percentage of gamers. You do not need to be challenged to feel engaged. Challenge helps for sure, but it's not neccessary.

Well, I never said anything about causation. But you do make a fair point. There can be engagement without challenge. Still I'm not sure how relevant these other games are here. For me at least, engagement in FFXIV comes from the challenge (at least for combat activities). But I suppose some people might treat raiding like playing Candy Crush. Maybe they feel engaged by watching the buttons light up on their hotbar.

This is a strawman. I never suggested that they're equally engaging at all. Just look at the DPS boards and you'll see all the complaints regarding certain DPS jobs. But unlike here, I don't see a single thread talking about how it sucks to be your favourite role.

Sorry, what I said may have been unclear. The claim I intended to attribute to you was not that one DPS job is equally as engaging as another, but rather that a single DPS job is equally challenging at all levels of difficulty. I think you did say this but perhaps I misunderstood.

The issue is that playing a healer (any healer)isn't engaging without jumping right into the hardest content.

Again, as I said before, I disagree with this. A job can be more or less engaging for different players and in different content. What's unengaging for you may be engaging for less experienced players. Speaking for myself, as I gained more experience, I needed to do more difficult content to maintain the same level of engagement.

And when all the healers are so simplified, there isn't another healer job I can switch to that I can feel engaged playing.

Have you tried doing harder content?

[ty_taurus]

I find it strange that people complain about healing not being engaging and challenging when the game does provide content that is engaging and challenging to heal. It's like they're saying "I want to be challenged as a healer but I don't want to do the challenging content".

Firstly, I want to just clarify that I do enjoy challenging content. I mainly haven't done TEA or other ultimates because I just don't have the static party to do them. I do enjoy extreme and savage fights, however. I've been raiding since the Binding Coils of Bahamut to some degree or another, and I was exclusively a healer up until Shadowbringers, so I also have an understanding of what healing was like at multiple levels of play between old expansions and the current one.

First, I don't believe it's true for all players that healing is only engaging in ultimate. When I was less experienced, I found casual content more engaging. I'm sure there are other players out there who are like I was then. When casual content ceased being engaging for me, I progressed to more difficult content.

What you are describing here is true and highlights a very interesting quirk that is unique to healing: the less you know about your job and the less you know about the encounter, the more fun healing is because the damage that you and your team takes is seemingly "unpredictable" (not actually unpredictable, but with low skill and/or experience, it can seem that way). This means your need for healing is something you aren't planning for and must adapt to on the fly, which is a thrilling and adrenaline-pumping experience. That said, this aspect is transient. The better you get at healing and the more you learn new fights, the more that thrill evaporates.

The main argument I see over and over again by players supporting the existing healers is quite literally always about content or experiences that are temporary. What those of us who have been challenging the healers' designs have been saying over and over again that you and other defenders have constantly ignored is that healing is not fun outside of those moments.

When you're not progging a new fight, when you're not learning how to heal for the first time, when you're not a casual healer, when you're not doing ultimate, healing is dull and lifeless.

Healing is dull and lifeless when you're doing the MSQ, when you're grinding FATEs, when you're doing Roulettes, when you're doing Beast Tribe Quests, when you're farming Extreme/Savage fights after having learned them, when you're farming unsynched content, when you're doing treasure map dungeons, when you're doing your 24-man alliance raids after the first few weeks when less people are failing mechanics, when you're hunting marks, when you're farming deep dungeons, when you've ultimately learned how to optimize your healing and thus have significantly more time to mash the Glareficoil button like you're playing a Mario Party minigame.

And the thing that bothers me the most out of all this is that if they actually did listen to the criticisms and worked to improve the gameplay experience for healers when no healing was needed, I strongly believe you and anyone else who's been staunchly defending the healers probably wouldn't be bothered by those changes at all. You'd continue to play the same way that you already do, so why do you even care in the first place?

[Kabooa]

And the thing that bothers me the most out of all this is that if they actually did listen to the criticisms and worked to improve the gameplay experience for healers when no healing was needed, I strongly believe you and anyone else who's been staunchly defending the healers probably wouldn't be bothered by those changes at all. You'd continue to play the same way that you already do, so why do you even care in the first place?

I can answer that pretty easily.

Because I actually love playing support and healers. It's what I did in a previous life before FF14 ARR was even on my radar. In every MMO or team centric role based game, I was either the support or the tank. Often both, with DPS alts on the side. Imagine only limiting yourself to one facet of a game. Coming to FF14 and toying with the combat systems, I quickly realized tanking and healing here were not for me. Not because "I had to do damage". Because there just wasn't anything there. My healers were from Guild Wars 1, World of Warcraft, Aion, The Old Republic, Warhammer:AR, from team centric games like League of Legends, Overwatch. I could list others, but I think that gets the point across. I am the old tank and healer main. Even in the Old Republic where I started a Sniper at the insistence of my group at the time (Because they couldn't imagine anyone having fun playing healer or tank), I still rolled a juggernaut tank and played that way more.

So why do I get involved in discussions regarding healers? It's pretty easy to answer that. It's because I want to enjoy them like I used to. I want to see the depth I've seen them have in other games come here - to at least one of them. I've kind of accepted we won't see that, but I don't place the fault at SE alone.

If they DID listen to the loudest complaints and go in the directions being voiced (Spell "Combos" like weaponskills, more DoTs for the sake of DoTs, reduction of spell casting time), I not only don't gain in the ways I want to regarding them, I'd actively lose out as well.

[ty_taurus]

I can answer that pretty easily.

Because I actually love playing support and healers. It's what I did in a previous life before FF14 ARR was even on my radar. In every MMO or team centric role based game, I was either the support or the tank. Often both, with DPS alts on the side. Imagine only limiting yourself to one facet of a game. Coming to FF14 and toying with the combat systems, I quickly realized tanking and healing here were not for me. Not because "I had to do damage". Because there just wasn't anything there. My healers were from Guild Wars 1, World of Warcraft, Aion, The Old Republic, Warhammer:AR, from team centric games like League of Legends, Overwatch. I could list others, but I think that gets the point across. I am the old tank and healer main. Even in the Old Republic where I started a Sniper at the insistence of my group at the time (Because they couldn't imagine anyone having fun playing healer or tank), I still rolled a juggernaut tank and played that way more.

So why do I get involved in discussions regarding healers? It's pretty easy to answer that. It's because I want to enjoy them like I used to. I want to see the depth I've seen them have in other games come here - to at least one of them. I've kind of accepted we won't see that, but I don't place the fault at SE alone.

If they DID listen to the loudest complaints and go in the directions being voiced (Spell "Combos" like weaponskills, more DoTs for the sake of DoTs, reduction of spell casting time), I not only don't gain in the ways I want to regarding them, I'd actively lose out as well.

But you also said specifically in this very post that "(the) healing here (was) not for me." So you already don't like the healers that we currently have regardless of whether they're changed or not. Moreover, those of us who have been criticizing the healers have also been asking for more support, utility, and healing opportunities. DPSing as a healer deserves to be more fun, but we also want to need to DPS a lot less, particularly in relatively easy or older content. I for one have pitched multiple times that AST should just do almost no direct DPS outside of mainly just maintaining their DoT--That they should have GCD buffs that deal flat potency damage when other players attack, allowing you to contribute to RDPS without really having to attack enemies directly at all. When they aren't healing, they should be tossing out support left and right, not spamming Malefic. Wouldn't that be more in your favor?