How would you feel if shields had no upfront healing?

[BungleBear]

In SCH's case, they have such a vast library of OGCD healing that they almost never ever need to even think about Adloquium or Succor even in some of the most challenging content the game has to offer.

Have you ever played SCH in high-level content? I'd like to see a SCH heal TEA without using Succor, for example.

[ty_taurus]

Have you ever played SCH in high-level content? I'd like to see a SCH heal TEA without using Succor, for example.

I have not played through TEA, actually, and that is certainly a very good example of where healers are pushed to used the majority of their tools, but the issue I have with using TEA is that very few people have attempted that level of challenge and it is very much not an example of how content plays in the rest of the game.

Here's the thing, at the highest echelon of play, healing is far more interactive and requires a lot more thought and variety in skill, but that's not the standard FFXIV experience and pretending like it is is what so many of us have issue with. Healers should ALWAYS be fun to play and have ALL of their tools feel important at every level of play, not just the highest and most challenging content that only a fraction of players will even attempt.

[Deceptus]

I have not played through TEA, actually, and that is certainly a very good example of where healers are pushed to used the majority of their tools, but the issue I have with using TEA is that very few people have attempted that level of challenge and it is very much not an example of how content plays in the rest of the game.

Here's the thing, at the highest echelon of play, healing is far more interactive and requires a lot more thought and variety in skill, but that's not the standard FFXIV experience and pretending like it is is what so many of us have issue with. Healers should ALWAYS be fun to play and have ALL of their tools feel important at every level of play, not just the highest and most challenging content that only a fraction of players will even attempt.

Seriously. Of course in the highest level of play every ability is squeezed to maximum potential.

90% of the game doesn't need players to use their full kit. That's the problem.

[BungleBear]

I have not played through TEA, actually, and that is certainly a very good example of where healers are pushed to used the majority of their tools, but the issue I have with using TEA is that very few people have attempted that level of challenge and it is very much not an example of how content plays in the rest of the game.

Here's the thing, at the highest echelon of play, healing is far more interactive and requires a lot more thought and variety in skill, but that's not the standard FFXIV experience and pretending like it is is what so many of us have issue with. Healers should ALWAYS be fun to play and have ALL of their tools feel important at every level of play, not just the highest and most challenging content that only a fraction of players will even attempt.

To be honest, I find it strange that people complain about healing not being engaging and challenging when the game does provide content that is engaging and challenging to heal. It's like they're saying "I want to be challenged as a healer but I don't want to do the challenging content".

It's also worth noting that how challenging a piece of content is for a given player depends largely on the player's level of experience. I can remember a time when normal mode raids seemed difficult. Now that I'm more experienced, I do ultimate for a challenge. I'm not going to complain that normal mode raids are too easy for me, or that they don't force me to use my full healing toolkit, because evidently they're not too easy for other players who are still learning how to use their healing toolkit.

Edit: I thought of an analogy. It's like an adult playing chess against children and then saying: "Oh my god, chess is too easy. I don't even need to use all my pieces to win. Chess needs to be redesigned to make it more challenging."

[Dearche]

To be honest, I find it strange that people complain about healing not being engaging and challenging when the game does provide content that is engaging and challenging to heal. It's like they're saying "I want to be challenged as a healer but I don't want to do the challenging content".

This isn't really about being challenging though. It's about being engaging.

Why is every DPS job engaging regardless of the difficulty of content, yet every single healer job isn't unless if you're playing an ultimate, which is designed for less than 1% of the player base? I dip into DRG as a side job and I find that engaging 100% of the time, even when I'm just farming roulettes for some tomestones. And that's a job that most DPS seem to think is one of the least engaging jobs amongst them.

This would be a much better argument if we could say that at least half of all healers feel that playing healing is engaging regardless of content difficulty, but it's a hard sell when playing healer means playing a glare mage 90% of the time.

[BungleBear]

This isn't really about being challenging though. It's about being engaging.

I would have thought that there's a correlation between being challenging and being engaging. More challenging content requires you to think more, to pay closer attention, to be more engaged.

Why is every DPS job engaging regardless of the difficulty of content, yet every single healer job isn't unless if you're playing an ultimate, which is designed for less than 1% of the player base?

First, I don't believe it's true for all players that healing is only engaging in ultimate. When I was less experienced, I found casual content more engaging. I'm sure there are other players out there who are like I was then. When casual content ceased being engaging for me, I progressed to more difficult content.

Second, I don't believe that DPS jobs are equally engaging at all levels of difficulty. Is it engaging to DPS against a striking dummy? Maybe when you've just started playing the job and you're still learning the rotation. But once you've got the rotation down, attacking a striking dummy is very unengaging. Maintaining your rotation while also executing mechanics is more engaging, and of course higher level content has more difficult mechanics.

I dip into DRG as a side job and I find that engaging 100% of the time, even when I'm just farming roulettes for some tomestones. And that's a job that most DPS seem to think is one of the least engaging jobs amongst them.

Perhaps this is because you're not a very experienced DRG? This really supports the point I'm trying to make. How engaging you find a job will depend on (a) how much experience you have playing the job, and (b) how difficult is the content you're doing. A lack of engagement may result from a mismatch between the experience of the player and the difficulty of the content. The solution is to do harder content (or switch to another job on which you're less experienced).

[Dearche]

I would have thought that there's a correlation between being challenging and being engaging. More challenging content requires you to think more, to pay closer attention, to be more engaged.

First, I don't believe it's true for all players that healing is only engaging in ultimate.

As the famous saying goes: correlation does not equate causation.

Candy Crush isn't challenging, but it's still engaging to many people. Harvest moon isn't challenging at all, but it's hella engaging for a large percentage of gamers. You do not need to be challenged to feel engaged. Challenge helps for sure, but it's not neccessary.

Second, I don't believe that DPS jobs are equally engaging at all levels of difficulty.

This is a strawman. I never suggested that they're equally engaging at all. Just look at the DPS boards and you'll see all the complaints regarding certain DPS jobs. But unlike here, I don't see a single thread talking about how it sucks to be your favourite role.

Perhaps this is because you're not a very experienced DRG?

I won't deny that. I spend more than 90% of my ingame time as a healer, so naturally I won't be as good as a DPS even if I've been playing it since ARR (in fact, I was a DRG before I even picked up a healer job)

The solution is to do harder content (or switch to another job on which you're less experienced).

This is another strawman.

The issue is that playing a healer (any healer)isn't engaging without jumping right into the hardest content. Frankly speaking, that says more about the content than the role, as healing high end raids isn't fun. It's the running around doing mechanics that's fun.

And when all the healers are so simplified, there isn't another healer job I can switch to that I can feel engaged playing.

[BungleBear]

As the famous saying goes: correlation does not equate causation.

Candy Crush isn't challenging, but it's still engaging to many people. Harvest moon isn't challenging at all, but it's hella engaging for a large percentage of gamers. You do not need to be challenged to feel engaged. Challenge helps for sure, but it's not neccessary.

Well, I never said anything about causation. But you do make a fair point. There can be engagement without challenge. Still I'm not sure how relevant these other games are here. For me at least, engagement in FFXIV comes from the challenge (at least for combat activities). But I suppose some people might treat raiding like playing Candy Crush. Maybe they feel engaged by watching the buttons light up on their hotbar.

This is a strawman. I never suggested that they're equally engaging at all. Just look at the DPS boards and you'll see all the complaints regarding certain DPS jobs. But unlike here, I don't see a single thread talking about how it sucks to be your favourite role.

Sorry, what I said may have been unclear. The claim I intended to attribute to you was not that one DPS job is equally as engaging as another, but rather that a single DPS job is equally challenging at all levels of difficulty. I think you did say this but perhaps I misunderstood.

The issue is that playing a healer (any healer)isn't engaging without jumping right into the hardest content.

Again, as I said before, I disagree with this. A job can be more or less engaging for different players and in different content. What's unengaging for you may be engaging for less experienced players. Speaking for myself, as I gained more experience, I needed to do more difficult content to maintain the same level of engagement.

And when all the healers are so simplified, there isn't another healer job I can switch to that I can feel engaged playing.

Have you tried doing harder content?