Nature of the Sound

[JetoJotar]

I have a hard time accepting the interpretation of the sound as seen in this thread: A literal, external threat that lead to the destruction of the Ancients. I don't feel there is much, if anything, in the game to strongly suggest that to be the case and I find it very hard to reconcile such a development with the general themes and revelations seen in Shadowbringers.

I am much more inclined to interpret it as powers growing out of control and believe the text in the game fully supports this. What we know definitively about the Ancients is that they had essentially divine creation magicks at their disposal and an advanced, orderly society that enjoyed debate and philosophy. We are also told that there was a "sound" that rolled or moved across the lands until it finally reached Amaurot.

The term sound I believe to be chosen deliberately because it represents an immaterial threat. There was no being that compelled the Ancients to go out of control, it was an invisible force that can only be theorised to be an entity at all. This theorising would be exactly the cause of the Fall and a very poetic way to end this type of civilisation.

To put it in a simple timeline of events:
- the Ancients lived for a long time, creating many things with their magicks
- as time progressed, these creations gradually grew more complex, as did their society
- eventually the process of creation went from a sort of natural course of being to something they deliberately studied, analysed and regulated
- these studies slowly fostered a subtle but widespread fear
- eventually a single mishap (the original "sound", if you will) could cause a chain reaction and echo across the entire world

In a society that is founded on the power of producing things out of thin air, philosophy in its broadest sense is a direct existential threat. As they studied the theory of creation they would inevitably confront concepts such as "the most horrific thing imaginable" and "unimaginable suffering". At the same time, dealing with this power in an organised fashion would produce meta concerns. What if someone else creates an eldritch abomination? What if that initial incident then spurs someone else's imagination? What if thinking that such a chain reaction could happen in fact is another start of a different chain reaction? Having any of these concerns at all is an immediate risk factor.

All of these theories could create an atmosphere of terror that eventually leads to complete loss of control over the creation magicks, doubly so once the first widespread incidents begin to happen. We know that Amaurot was experiencing despair before any harm befell it.

There was no entity that influenced the Ancients, nor did the planet itself rebel against them. It was simply a natural conclusion of their way of life combined with their inherent powers. That is precisely why their solution was to create Zodiark: To control them and prevent them from bringing about pandemonium.

[Vyrerus]

I have a hard time

It's left vague on purpose so they have room to write it into whatever they want it to actually be. While your post here is great, I think it lends too much credit to the Ascian's ancient civilization.

By that I mean, we're also shown that they don't take individualism well, concealing it except in private. The society has a dress code, and they have regulations and procedures for everything. While they enjoyed debate and philosophy, some things were obviously off the table for discussion, and while that may only be inferred, it is more than likely true.

Every society has dissidents after all, and how do you think a society like Amaurot's would deal with dissidents? Execution? Banishment? Forced "rehabilitation?" We're never shown, because Emet-selch only drafted up his good memories from Amaurot, and then the event that took them away. Yet, even in that pleasant memory scape, there was enough of a hint that there was a darker side to their society.

In our own society we say there are people with dangerous ideas. Like you say, ideas are direct existential threats for a people like the Amaurotine (And we even argue they are existential threat in the real world). What limit then, on resolving those deemed to have dangerous ideas? Branching off of that, what lengths would a group of revolutionaries go to in order to cause massive societal upheaval?

I'm inclined to think that there was a tangible source for the Sound, because there were other societies out of Amaurot that are implied to be different from Amaurot. Without the missing puzzle piece to know what they did differently that still had them succumb to the same fate sooner, then we can't dismiss the thought that the Sound has an entity(ies) behind it.

[Alleo]

I kinda wonder if maybe evil people existed around that time too? The ancients seems to have similiar feelings like the sundered people, and we know from the short stories that seemingly all was not well. At the same time Amaurot was heavily restricted. Restricted in what you can create, restricted in your individuality.

What if some Amaurotines or Ancients got sick of that and started to experiment on more shady things and along the way this got out of control? Maybe there were more twisted individuals like Fandaniel is right now.

I am not saying that a threat from outside the planet cant happen. At the same time I would find it strange if the whole world had not noticed it landing on the planet. I cant believe that Amaurotine or other big cities would not be interested in such a thing. Of course maybe some where interested and that source itself somehow then turned their magic against them.

I wonder if Venat and her group new what the source was thus why they believed that Zodiark would not be the final solution. Maybe they believed that whatever was the cause would be less powerful or dangerous if the world was sundered. And maybe Azem did not join them because they just wanted to punsh it in the face, whatever it is. (Or we will later find out that they did change their minds and did indeed support the summoning of Hydaelyn which would explain why we are her champion right now)

Edit:
@Vyrerus: I wrote my post before reading yours. Seems that we are of similiar minds. I just cant believe that any society does not have their bad apples...and even sundered beings can do horrible things, so what would unsundered Ancient ones be able to dO?

[Tensaihime]

I kinda wonder if maybe evil people existed around that time too? The ancients seems to have similiar feelings like the sundered people, and we know from the short stories that seemingly all was not well. At the same time Amaurot was heavily restricted. Restricted in what you can create, restricted in your individuality.

What if some Amaurotines or Ancients got sick of that and started to experiment on more shady things and along the way this got out of control? Maybe there were more twisted individuals like Fandaniel is right now.

I came here to ask about something like this. I was on TV Tropes reading about FFXIII (I didn’t have FFXIII money when it came out and then I kind of just forgot about it), and

that game had long-lived superior beings who were so sick of living the way they were supposed to that they did some messed-up things to try and get out of it.

My hypothesis is that something similar happened with Emet’s homies -or maybe it started way before “our” Emet and pals took office -and led to the Sound.

[GoldStarz]

For me, the problem with the idea that the Sound came the Amaurotine's creation magicks is that they were the last people to get hit by whatever force was destroying their world. We know that other societies out of Amaurot were being affected prior to it affecting them since they were taking their time thinking of a course of action to take, both to defend themselves and whether to bother helping or not, before everything went haywire for them, too. If their magick was the cause of all this though, wouldn't they have been the first, if not only, people who were affected by this disaster?

The sound may not be a literal tangible thing, that's possible. But I definitely don't think it's the result of creation magick, especially since that's no longer a feasible action to pull off, but Fandanny seems pretty sure he can restart the Final Days without it.

[Alleo]

For me, the problem with the idea that the Sound came the Amaurotine's creation magicks is that they were the last people to get hit by whatever force was destroying their world. We know that other societies out of Amaurot were being affected prior to it affecting them since they were taking their time thinking of a course of action to take, both to defend themselves and whether to bother helping or not, before everything went haywire for them, too. If their magick was the cause of all this though, wouldn't they have been the first, if not only, people who were affected by this disaster?

The sound may not be a literal tangible thing, that's possible. But I definitely don't think it's the result of creation magick, especially since that's no longer a feasible action to pull off, but Fandanny seems pretty sure he can restart the Final Days without it.

As far as we know Amaurotine was just one big city and that creation magicks existed beyond its border. We also have NPCs that talk about being accepted to live there (and one saying that they hopefully dont regret it) so there has to be other ancient ones all around the world. And even if someone from Amaurotine started it, it could have been someone that simply traveled somewhere else.

It could even be that one or a few ancient people started to experiment on some dark stuff far away from the controlling eyes of Amaurotine. They may have even used the lifestream itself in these experiments, creating something absolutely horrible. And since it was selfmade, it was able to manipulate their creation magicks. Maybe the creators were able to lock it up but it was too powerful and still influenced everything.

Maybe Azem has even fought it and then came to the realization that it would be much too powerful, so they chained it and afterwards let it be weakened through the sundering?

[EaraGrace]

As far as we know Amaurotine was just one big city and that creation magicks existed beyond its border. We also have NPCs that talk about being accepted to live there (and one saying that they hopefully dont regret it) so there has to be other ancient ones all around the world. And even if someone from Amaurotine started it, it could have been someone that simply traveled somewhere else.

It could even be that one or a few ancient people started to experiment on some dark stuff far away from the controlling eyes of Amaurotine. They may have even used the lifestream itself in these experiments, creating something absolutely horrible. And since it was selfmade, it was able to manipulate their creation magicks. Maybe the creators were able to lock it up but it was too powerful and still influenced everything.

Maybe Azem has even fought it and then came to the realization that it would be much too powerful, so they chained it and afterwards let it be weakened through the sundering?

The issue with the Ancients or a secret cabal of them being the ones behind the Sound is that the Sound had an impact that went beyond what a small group of them if could achieve. It did after all break the very laws of existence and threw creation magics worldwide into chaos. It took half of the surviving Ancients, including one of the Convocation with the rests’ aid, to undue and halt the Sound. I think it’s reasonable to assume it’s power is at least equal to that, which, unless there’s another hidden extremely powerful civilization lurking about, would make it very unlikely for the Ancients to not see coming. This would contradict what we’ve heard, as the Sound is after all, a complete mystery even to them.

On Azem or the Sundering being what defeated it, unless Endwalker introduces some twists on that, Shadowbringers is pretty clear that it was Zodiark who stopped the Sound and ended the Final Days.

[Alleo]

I mean there were many regulations in Amaurotine including what to wear so that it does not stirr envy and other bad emotions. Yet even with all that they created monsters that could be quite strong. And as you said the surviving people of Amaurotine (it was the only one still standing at the end) were able to summon Zodiark, a being that was able to rewrite the laws of existance. Now he was created in a very short time. I can imagine that a group of powerful Ancient ones could create something similar over a long amount of time and keep it hidden especially when its far far away from Amaurotine. And when that one got loose all it needed was a snowball system. It only needed to start the fire and the ancients and their fear would then have made it much worse.

Also the sound or what produced it may have been stopped but Venat and her group were sure that Zodiark was not a long term solution.

I would also find it kinda strange if it was something from outside the planet. It must have been so utterly powerful to throw the creation magics in chaos and yet went completely under radar when it landed on the planet?

I guess some kind of monster would be better as some kind of endboss. (But if it was so powerful then it makes it even more unbelieveable that we are able to defeat it, sundered or not) But for me some kind of alien would just be the worst of all options.

[RyuDragnier]

On Azem or the Sundering being what defeated it, unless Endwalker introduces some twists on that, Shadowbringers is pretty clear that it was Zodiark who stopped the Sound and ended the Final Days.

As far as the Ascians knew anyway. Remember, we only know things from their end, not from Azem's memories. We're missing knowledge on what really happened, and that missing knowledge is going to come into play in Endwalker. We may find out that the Sound had formed inside the Underworld itself by the malice of souls unable to accept their own deaths and regrets, and when Zodiark "saved" the world it only managed to calm the being enough by changing out the souls that created it, which would make it so it needed more time to reappear. If so, then Zodiark was indeed not a long term solution, it would only be able to temporarily deal with it, it would still eventually form. If Azem discovered this, then Hydaelyn's Sundering of the world may have been figured out as the long term fix.

It basically not only divided the souls that created The Sound up into 14 parts, it evenly distributed the malice making it less potent. Now since Hydaelyn, and thus Venat and her followers were not Sundered themselves since they died to create Hydaelyn, you have 14 FULLY POWERED Ancients (assuming the tales of "The Twelve", technically 13 because twins, being gods is true), taking on a single part of the Sound themselves, keeping it under control. You have fixed the problem, in a very long term solution.

[EaraGrace]

As far as the Ascians knew anyway. Remember, we only know things from their end, not from Azem's memories. We're missing knowledge on what really happened, and that missing knowledge is going to come into play in Endwalker. We may find out that the Sound had formed inside the Underworld itself by the malice of souls unable to accept their own deaths and regrets, and when Zodiark "saved" the world it only managed to calm the being enough by changing out the souls that created it, which would make it so it needed more time to reappear. If so, then Zodiark was indeed not a long term solution, it would only be able to temporarily deal with it, it would still eventually form. If Azem discovered this, then Hydaelyn's Sundering of the world may have been figured out as the long term fix.

It basically not only divided the souls that created The Sound up into 14 parts, it evenly distributed the malice making it less potent. Now since Hydaelyn, and thus Venat and her followers were not Sundered themselves since they died to create Hydaelyn, you have 14 FULLY POWERED Ancients (assuming the tales of "The Twelve", technically 13 because twins, being gods is true), taking on a single part of the Sound themselves, keeping it under control. You have fixed the problem, in a very long term solution.

Couple of issues.

First, Zodiark calming the Sound by giving the souls that were offered makes little sense given we have an Ancient who is noted as being able to see the movement of Souls to and from the Underworld. How would he have not noticed such an influx to the Underworld? Not to mention Elidibus is clearly shown to be an uncompromising person when it came to protecting and saving his friends and family. There’s no reason to believe that him acting as the core would be okay with that.

Second, there’s nothing that we know that would lead us to believe that the Sound could be bargained with or appeased. It sought out destruction without overtures or negotiation. Why would it acquiesce to Zodiark? It could’ve ignored him and had all of the souls it wanted.

Third, any description of the Sound and it’s motives is purely speculative atm. We don’t know what created it or what it wants other than it seemed to desire destruction.

Fourth, the idea that the 14 Ancient Souls were capable of a feat that nearly half of Amarouts existing population wasn’t makes no sense. Venat and the group themselves recognize they are weaker than Zodiark, and that only through Enervation would they be capable of standing against him.

Now, is it possible that with info from Endwalker this is correct, sure. But we have nothing to believe this is true and would be a convoluted explanation if it does turn out to be right.