Nature of the Sound

[GoldStarz]

For me, the problem with the idea that the Sound came the Amaurotine's creation magicks is that they were the last people to get hit by whatever force was destroying their world. We know that other societies out of Amaurot were being affected prior to it affecting them since they were taking their time thinking of a course of action to take, both to defend themselves and whether to bother helping or not, before everything went haywire for them, too. If their magick was the cause of all this though, wouldn't they have been the first, if not only, people who were affected by this disaster?

The sound may not be a literal tangible thing, that's possible. But I definitely don't think it's the result of creation magick, especially since that's no longer a feasible action to pull off, but Fandanny seems pretty sure he can restart the Final Days without it.

[Alleo]

For me, the problem with the idea that the Sound came the Amaurotine's creation magicks is that they were the last people to get hit by whatever force was destroying their world. We know that other societies out of Amaurot were being affected prior to it affecting them since they were taking their time thinking of a course of action to take, both to defend themselves and whether to bother helping or not, before everything went haywire for them, too. If their magick was the cause of all this though, wouldn't they have been the first, if not only, people who were affected by this disaster?

The sound may not be a literal tangible thing, that's possible. But I definitely don't think it's the result of creation magick, especially since that's no longer a feasible action to pull off, but Fandanny seems pretty sure he can restart the Final Days without it.

As far as we know Amaurotine was just one big city and that creation magicks existed beyond its border. We also have NPCs that talk about being accepted to live there (and one saying that they hopefully dont regret it) so there has to be other ancient ones all around the world. And even if someone from Amaurotine started it, it could have been someone that simply traveled somewhere else.

It could even be that one or a few ancient people started to experiment on some dark stuff far away from the controlling eyes of Amaurotine. They may have even used the lifestream itself in these experiments, creating something absolutely horrible. And since it was selfmade, it was able to manipulate their creation magicks. Maybe the creators were able to lock it up but it was too powerful and still influenced everything.

Maybe Azem has even fought it and then came to the realization that it would be much too powerful, so they chained it and afterwards let it be weakened through the sundering?

[EaraGrace]

As far as we know Amaurotine was just one big city and that creation magicks existed beyond its border. We also have NPCs that talk about being accepted to live there (and one saying that they hopefully dont regret it) so there has to be other ancient ones all around the world. And even if someone from Amaurotine started it, it could have been someone that simply traveled somewhere else.

It could even be that one or a few ancient people started to experiment on some dark stuff far away from the controlling eyes of Amaurotine. They may have even used the lifestream itself in these experiments, creating something absolutely horrible. And since it was selfmade, it was able to manipulate their creation magicks. Maybe the creators were able to lock it up but it was too powerful and still influenced everything.

Maybe Azem has even fought it and then came to the realization that it would be much too powerful, so they chained it and afterwards let it be weakened through the sundering?

The issue with the Ancients or a secret cabal of them being the ones behind the Sound is that the Sound had an impact that went beyond what a small group of them if could achieve. It did after all break the very laws of existence and threw creation magics worldwide into chaos. It took half of the surviving Ancients, including one of the Convocation with the rests’ aid, to undue and halt the Sound. I think it’s reasonable to assume it’s power is at least equal to that, which, unless there’s another hidden extremely powerful civilization lurking about, would make it very unlikely for the Ancients to not see coming. This would contradict what we’ve heard, as the Sound is after all, a complete mystery even to them.

On Azem or the Sundering being what defeated it, unless Endwalker introduces some twists on that, Shadowbringers is pretty clear that it was Zodiark who stopped the Sound and ended the Final Days.

[RyuDragnier]

On Azem or the Sundering being what defeated it, unless Endwalker introduces some twists on that, Shadowbringers is pretty clear that it was Zodiark who stopped the Sound and ended the Final Days.

As far as the Ascians knew anyway. Remember, we only know things from their end, not from Azem's memories. We're missing knowledge on what really happened, and that missing knowledge is going to come into play in Endwalker. We may find out that the Sound had formed inside the Underworld itself by the malice of souls unable to accept their own deaths and regrets, and when Zodiark "saved" the world it only managed to calm the being enough by changing out the souls that created it, which would make it so it needed more time to reappear. If so, then Zodiark was indeed not a long term solution, it would only be able to temporarily deal with it, it would still eventually form. If Azem discovered this, then Hydaelyn's Sundering of the world may have been figured out as the long term fix.

It basically not only divided the souls that created The Sound up into 14 parts, it evenly distributed the malice making it less potent. Now since Hydaelyn, and thus Venat and her followers were not Sundered themselves since they died to create Hydaelyn, you have 14 FULLY POWERED Ancients (assuming the tales of "The Twelve", technically 13 because twins, being gods is true), taking on a single part of the Sound themselves, keeping it under control. You have fixed the problem, in a very long term solution.

[EaraGrace]

As far as the Ascians knew anyway. Remember, we only know things from their end, not from Azem's memories. We're missing knowledge on what really happened, and that missing knowledge is going to come into play in Endwalker. We may find out that the Sound had formed inside the Underworld itself by the malice of souls unable to accept their own deaths and regrets, and when Zodiark "saved" the world it only managed to calm the being enough by changing out the souls that created it, which would make it so it needed more time to reappear. If so, then Zodiark was indeed not a long term solution, it would only be able to temporarily deal with it, it would still eventually form. If Azem discovered this, then Hydaelyn's Sundering of the world may have been figured out as the long term fix.

It basically not only divided the souls that created The Sound up into 14 parts, it evenly distributed the malice making it less potent. Now since Hydaelyn, and thus Venat and her followers were not Sundered themselves since they died to create Hydaelyn, you have 14 FULLY POWERED Ancients (assuming the tales of "The Twelve", technically 13 because twins, being gods is true), taking on a single part of the Sound themselves, keeping it under control. You have fixed the problem, in a very long term solution.

Couple of issues.

First, Zodiark calming the Sound by giving the souls that were offered makes little sense given we have an Ancient who is noted as being able to see the movement of Souls to and from the Underworld. How would he have not noticed such an influx to the Underworld? Not to mention Elidibus is clearly shown to be an uncompromising person when it came to protecting and saving his friends and family. There’s no reason to believe that him acting as the core would be okay with that.

Second, there’s nothing that we know that would lead us to believe that the Sound could be bargained with or appeased. It sought out destruction without overtures or negotiation. Why would it acquiesce to Zodiark? It could’ve ignored him and had all of the souls it wanted.

Third, any description of the Sound and it’s motives is purely speculative atm. We don’t know what created it or what it wants other than it seemed to desire destruction.

Fourth, the idea that the 14 Ancient Souls were capable of a feat that nearly half of Amarouts existing population wasn’t makes no sense. Venat and the group themselves recognize they are weaker than Zodiark, and that only through Enervation would they be capable of standing against him.

Now, is it possible that with info from Endwalker this is correct, sure. But we have nothing to believe this is true and would be a convoluted explanation if it does turn out to be right.

[Vyrerus]

The issue with

Oh, why is that? Our band of heroes is small and routinely saves the world from world ending threats. Why does the size of the group propagating the disaster matter? For that matter, the Convocation of 14 is a small group, and they over millenia have destroyed entire worlds in the name of Rejoinings.

Also, I think you misunderstand the idea behind the Sound. The Sound itself only had the power to drive the Ancients mad. Once the Ancient's own creation magicks were running amok causing their worst ideas, nightmares, and dark fantasies to come to life it had but to spread. Think of it like a germ. It infects one individual. That individual goes on to infect more individuals. In time, a pandemic ensues, and then what?

By the time Zodiark was conceived, they weren't just stopping the Sound. They were stopping the entirety of all lifeforms with creation magicks worldwide. Also, it's actually still up for debate as to whether or not Zodiark stopped the cause of the Sound, as his main focus was to stop the apocalypse it had wrought. It actually wasn't explicitly stated that he stopped the source.

We can conjecture, too, that Zodiark did this without killing a single Ancient that wasn't part of the sacrifices required to first create him and then to undo the apocalypse and its damage. The reason he was not a long term solution is because every world bending action he took required sacrifice, but also because the Ancients never fully learnt the cause of their apocalypse. This meant more apocalypses while the body of leadership had become zealots for their man-made god.

Hydaelyn was made specifically to combat Zodiark, and until they tell us otherwise, I'm still of the belief that her enervating power was taken too far, and that the Sundering was incidental. That it stopped the Sound only incidentally, and it was actually a horrible mistake.

As for Fandaniel needing a ton of power to bring the Sound back or what have you... well that's going to come from the Ancient's own gods once they're dug up. We're going to get a gravy train of all the missing puzzle pieces here at the end of November, but I firmly believe that Fandaniel's twisted mind comes from being related to what the source of the Sound is actually. He doesn't really need the same exact proportions as the original Final Days to pull off another Armageddon. We are still sundered beings after all.

Consider this: If the Ascians had wanted to end the world, then they could have. They could have at any point in their history. One now does, and he has all of the old knowledge to do so. Knowledge is power, or so the saying goes, and knowledge is going to be a theme in Endwalkers, I think.

[EaraGrace]

Oh, why is that? Our band of heroes is small and routinely saves the world from world ending threats...

Once again disclaimer that perhaps Endwalker will add things and we’ll have an understanding that matches your interpretation.

It’s stated by Venats group themselves that their numeric disadvantage does pose a big challenge to fighting Zodiark, one only overcome through the creation of the magicks for enervation as well as having Venat specifically serve as the core. Even then it only barely works and takes an extended conflict.

And the Sound is described as doing far more than simply hijacking powers, but breaking the laws of existence to such an extent as to require mending by an entity as powerful as Zodiark. It’s even described as distorting living things who hear it. Not to mention, the Sound isn’t described as spreading from person to person like a germ or virus, but like a virus infecting the world itself. Which is why the plan to give a will to the star came forth, to stand in opposition using their most powerful creation magic.

On stopping the Sound, my point is that to believe that Zodiark halted the Final Days but not the Sound in some manner (either by cutting off its influence or forcing its hibernation) requires a pretty weird set of circumstances to occur. Not only would the Sound have to decide of its volition to cease, but it would have to continue to do so until Hydaelyn is summoned and it’s actually subdued. That’s what I found to be ridiculous about the speculation above.

On enervation, while no clear confirmation exists its unlikely that they’re wasn’t a least an understanding the enervating the “will of the star” would cause issues. It doesn’t make their actions wrong, just complicated.

[Vyrerus]

Once again disclaimer

Yes, the story has Venat's group point out that they're under dogs, so that we sympathize more with them. However, we already know that they succeed, so in all honesty it's dynamic bluster for the script. It
"barely" working is never shown, so not sure why you're cooking on that griddle. If anything it's shown to not work as intended or work too well in fact, as it literally killed the rest of their civilization, as well as all other civilizations on the planet, and caused a rend in space/time/aether for the entire planet, resulting in the present day scenario. Talk about a "fix."

The Sound is never described to break the laws of existence. It is described to distort all life that hears it, causing said life to lose control of their creation magicks, which in turn causes them to manifest all of their concepts, but especially the worst, most monstrous ones. This in turn drives fear into the hearts of everyone who witnesses it, and they are set upon by the malformed beasts, and then they themselves are killed or lose control of the needed focus to create good creations. Voice of Emet-Selch: Once the fear has taken root, it cannot be expunged... What spread around like a plague was a fear of this event before it even actually ever happened, priming the inevitable to be even worse than it would have been otherwise. You can see this in the sidequest for flying where an Amaurotine has you play with his concept for toys, and the toys wind up being slimes that attempt to kill you while shouting playful japes. It doesn't take much, after all, to ruin a concept as another couple of Amaurotines state that even just seeing another creature, person, or having an idle thought come up while you create can radically alter your creation. The anxiety brought by the Sound gradually ruining the world was very much a plague.

This also implies that the creation is unchecked, and it's of such a scope that the necessary aether to do it is not just sourced from the Ancient's innate powers, but from the land, the planet, itself. This is why Zodiark's initial conception required sacrifice of half their people to first be created, and then another half of them to restore the land. The land had nothing left to give, because it was drained by rampant and unchecked creation magic, as well as physically battered by all manner of attack and disaster, mostly meteorites.

And I think your thoughts on your point are still conceptually at a misunderstanding. The Sound as described in game seemed to methodically advance through civilizations, carving a path to Amaurot last. It was sudden, so you couldn't predict when it would happen to your home. We're never told just how much information the Convocation has about it, and the biggest source for what it does comes from the, "Anxious Amaurotine" NPC in the first set of MSQs upon arriving in Amaurot's illusion. Zodiark is said to have stopped the Final Days by, "rewriting the laws of reality" but we've never been told what that entails. You tell me though, whether it's by rewriting the laws or reality or just a hand wave, how does Zodiark stop the Sound at its source, if he doesn't know what its Source is? Like, Zodiark is extremely powerful, that's mainly what the, "rewrite reality's laws" bit is really trying to say to us, narratively, but it doesn't make sense that he could know more than his creators.

My point on this is, is that you cannot dismiss the idea that the Sound's source wasn't stopped, until we're given the information that the Convocation knew that there was a source for it that could be stopped. However, obviously, they could have just had Zodiark make Amaurotines/Ancients immune to the Sound. So the sound keens cacophonously, and it does nothing, because it's a new law of reality. Of course, then, whatever is the Source of the Sound just has to tweak its design, and make it circumvent the new laws, once again distorting life and creation magicks and the whole nine yards. I imagine that the situation with Hydaelyn came about soon enough that this design could not yet be changed. Of course, it's also the fact that the Ancient population was pretty starved for people by this point, and it was ultimately their powers that were hijacked that caused the Final Days (siphoned directly from their minds, as the Anxious Amaurotine puts it, from the rumors he heard).

However, look at the Endwalkers trailer. We're fighting the same monsters that we fight just before we fight Therion in Amaurot's apocalyptic recreation. First the dahaks which are, "Terminus Lacerators" and then later Estinien/Vrtra fight, "Terminus Idolizers." People are being forced into Fandaniel's Towers, having their aether and conceptions of gods siphoned from their minds and given form at a cost to the land. It's play for play the same moves that brought about the first Final Days.

Further still, there's another bit that we're never directly told about Zodiark. If the Ancients believed the planet itself to be sick, then what would be the point of giving it an actual, living will? So that it could suffer more or be controlled? Whose plan/idea/concept was that? Who proposed it at the Convocation? Why would beings capable of making a being that's capable of rewriting reality not simply be able to rewrite reality themselves? Consolidating all the power and wisdom into a single entity just sounds like asking for trouble to me, but in a time of crisis such plans are often seen as the best and only way forward.

And I already addressed it somewhat, but on the topic of enervation, at the time it was a completely new concept for a form of attack. Emet-selch said in the Qitana Ravel that it was theretofore unseen. From the way he describes it, it's intrinsically morally bad, as it clones the person it targets, splitting them into two new lives, each deserving of life but with less power and lifespan than the original (Twice the suffering, twice the death). They didn't know what it would do, long term, much like the Manhattan Project wasn't sure whether or not a nuclear bomb would ignite the atmosphere and kill everyone or not, as some scientists theorized. So Hydaelyn winds up nullifying Zodiark, again, literally at the cost of the rest of the lives of every living being on the planet, the planet itself, and the regular state of the planet splitting it into a 14-way mess. That's not only complicated; it's wrong.

[EaraGrace]

Yes, the story has Venat's group…

In universe the conversation where the say that was not done for sympathy, but as a description of the situation from their perspective. The meta reasoning is inconsequential. And it did not kill, Emet Selch makes this distinction very clear, it divides but it doesn’t kill.

The Sound is never described to break the laws of existence.

Pragmatic Amaurotine: They will invoke our mightiest spells of creation to birth an entity of all-encompassing magnificence...and then they will rewrite the laws of existence.

The land had nothing left to give, because it was drained by rampant and unchecked creation magic.

I do not believe this was stated.

...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow.

The world is described as being “poisoned” and needing “cleansed.” Not lacking aether.

how does Zodiark stop the Sound at its source, if he doesn't know what its Source is?

You’re right that we don’t fully understand the mechanism, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have clues. And the fact that Zodiark is not just a primal but the will of the star and the Sound is described:

'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill─as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.

Clearly the two are connected.

They created a being specifically tailored to act on what they know. And it worked. The Sound was stopped.

And perhaps like the Primals of the Beast Tribes that show knowledge and understanding beyond their summoners, the “will of the star” knew more about what ailed the star as a result of its power and position?

If the Ancients believed the planet itself to be sick, then what would be the point of giving it an actual, living will? So that it could suffer more or be controlled? Whose plan/idea/concept was that? Who proposed it at the Convocation? Why would beings capable of making a being that's capable of rewriting reality not simply be able to rewrite reality themselves? Consolidating all the power and wisdom into a single entity just sounds like asking for trouble to me, but in a time of crisis such plans are often seen as the best and only way forward.

Because they needed the combined strength of many Amaurotines to achieve that goal. Simply having a group of potentially discordant creation magic users try to rewrite existence seems unwise.

And perhaps a controversial position but the Sundering wasn’t wrong. The alternative was either killing or hurting everyone with another form of attack, doing nothing and allowing innocent lives to be sacrificed to a god who has tempered the most powerful people on the planet, or fighting and losing.