Please implement something to teach players how to play

[SannaR]

Also I see how in over the time I was at work this thread got so damn high in page count. Jiminy Crickets this thread needs to be locked. Any time this thread tries to finally find a middle ground the same three posters wake up from their nap or whatever and start the same loop while a new new person to the thread comes and doesn't understand what this thread is about or even asking for due to people going five rounds with the same three people who'd rather just keep the discussion going in a never ending loop of "How Dare anyone ask for any way to improve the overall player base" tag teamed with "No one should care at all if or how anyone else plays as long as everyone is polite. Better yet just says nothing cause nothing but politeness matters. And everyone should just stop using the DF and PF only." While anyone who wants something to help improve the overall player base should feel shame for wanting it. Not that there aren't some who feel the other side shouldn't feel shame for being ok with ice mages ect and trolling.

[AlexionSkyllark]

Some people just don't care whether they finish a dungeon in 22 or 25 minutes. I'm included in those, BTW. And I'm a static leader, for a casual-to-mid (leaning more towards the first) group. And I trained my members to play extremely conservative and only worry about dealing as much dmg as needed to kill the boss, every other ounce of concentration should be spent on staying alive and doing mechanics.

The results? I've beaten more bosses with these guys than EVERYONE thought possible. And I couldn't care less about skipping mechs, since we can actually DO everything.

[Shurrikhan]

Some people just don't care whether they finish a dungeon in 22 or 25 minutes. I'm included in those, BTW.

Did I miss someone here complaining about a run going 13% longer, for that difference in time itself, rather than just blatant disregard for others' time when someone refuses to use the vast majority of their kit?... Admittedly, there have been many pages by now, but it seems like the majority of them have been spent reexplaining a point to the contrary, or strawmanning to force out said reexplanations ad nauseum...

And I'm a static leader, for a casual-to-mid (leaning more towards the first) group. And I trained my members to play extremely conservative and only worry about dealing as much dmg as needed to kill the boss, every other ounce of concentration should be spent on staying alive and doing mechanics.

The results? I've beaten more bosses with these guys than EVERYONE thought possible. And I couldn't care less about skipping mechs, since we can actually DO everything.

Nice.

Irrelevant to the thread at hand, but grats.

Just as a personal preference -- not as leader but just as a particular player -- I like to optimize my skills from the start, but that's mostly because I have issues with focus and the muscle memory created by optimizing things out precisely from the start (X being used at precisely Y moment) actually makes the mechanics far easier to perform, since every pivotal CD used is a reminder of the mechanic timings around it. If I learn just the mechanics and then need to optimize later, I'd have completely removed the assistance that optimization could provide for my sense of timing, and would likely disrupt what learning I've built over the fight so far. /shrug

Death penalizes damage, real and theoretical maximums, both in downtime and via the damage debuff. For most players likely to go into Savage, that extra bit of effort that might add a significant risk of death, then, does not warrant that risk. It's solely those who insist that even using just the majority of one's toolkit is unnecessary, and whose throughput already falls below that caused by a permanent Weakened debuff, who are pertinent to this thread, though.

[Shurrikhan]

You have to remember that Wow refugees are used to toxic runs where being new is worth being kicked for an overgeared replacement..

Why are people so eager to speak on the behalf of communities they clearly know little about?

You cannot overgear WoW leveling dungeons because of scaling. Your sustained dps is higher the lower level you are, to the point that not having at-level gear is hardly a problem compared to just being high-leveled. Even if one wanted the fastest possible run, they'd sooner kick the overgeared guy than the sprout-equivalent, because the overgeared guy increases the HP of mobs by a ratio greater than his damage exceeds the sprout's.

In the hardest dungeon content available, M+, you literally cannot replace those you've kicked. It automatically fails the run.

The only place where gear somewhat matters in casual endgame dungeons in the equivalent of Level 80 Dungeons Roulette, and even then people would much rather you just have a decent notion of what you're doing and not be an ass than be overgeared. Apart from obvious griefers or blatant leeches, no one is more likely to be kicked that the overgeared guy speeding ahead pulling CC-casting mobs or soloing bosses while people catch up from fear/stun-locks the guy overwhelmed them with.

[Ralph2449]

Why are people so eager to speak on the behalf of communities they clearly know little about?

You cannot overgear WoW leveling dungeons because of scaling. Your sustained dps is higher the lower level you are, to the point that not having at-level gear is hardly a problem compared to just being high-leveled. Even if one wanted the fastest possible run, they'd sooner kick the overgeared guy than the sprout-equivalent, because the overgeared guy increases the HP of mobs by a ratio greater than his damage exceeds the sprout's.

In the hardest dungeon content available, M+, you literally cannot replace those you've kicked. It automatically fails the run.

The only place where gear somewhat matters in casual endgame dungeons in the equivalent of Level 80 Dungeons Roulette, and even then people would much rather you just have a decent notion of what you're doing and not be an ass than be overgeared. Apart from obvious griefers or blatant leeches, no one is more likely to be kicked that the overgeared guy speeding ahead pulling CC-casting mobs or soloing bosses while people catch up from fear/stun-locks the guy overwhelmed them with.

Oh this is so wrong, leveling dungeons scaling can easily be abused with the right gear, scaling it nowhere near as advanced as you are saying, you can easily have gear that is too strong for low level content which is why a month after launch you see dps pulling entire rooms and surviving cuz they know heroic/normal dungeons are roflstomps when you are geared. Hell there's threads in the forums of people getting kicked because they werent ultra geared and were doing 1/5th of the other player dps because they were new while the older players had full on mythic gear and only doing heroic for legendaries/bonus or some quest.

In WoW gear is everything, people with gear have been selling leveling dungeon runs because they can literally pull half the dungeons and roflstomp it, very common in BfA's pirate dungeon where a single DH/warr pulled half the dungeon and killed everything in a few minutes to feed you xp while you afk near the area and then reset the dungeon, I know I bought a few leveling runs.

And in case you arent aware, the leave % in M+ is pretty high the moment a wipe happens and it means the timer will end, it doesnt matter that the run ends, people are often doing m+ for IO so if you cant time it, its bye bye for them and you can enjoy your depleted keystone.

And cuz i know WoW players like to attack others and pretend they dont know what they are talking about, feel free to check my profile https://raider.io/characters/us/frostmourne/Ralph%C3%A9

[Fungo]

Personally as a new player, I find it difficult to learn rotations properly, due to the syncs.
I am only a 57 samurai now, but when in group content, I often find myself missing one skill or another, so for me it us hard to build up muscle memory. So I am sure older players will see me screw up all the time.

I am just happy that everybody seems so nice in FF14.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Wake me up....when September ends

We have tried to say this so many ways, but everyone just comes back to elite casuals and buzz word buzz word random debate about speed running. I miss when everyone was giving some cool ideas, and explaining their frustrations they felt with the pre-existing 'tutorials' aka millions of pop up windows I disabled and told myself I would read those later.

Precisely this. The length of a mental gymnastic performed to justify intentional bad plays are certainly mind boggling. It’s like they’re highly allergic to this phrase specifically: “No one's asking for casual players to become elite players.” that they just had to censor it, figuratively.

I am just happy that everybody seems so nice in FF14.

Don’t worry. Majority of the playerbase ARE nice. Sometimes way too nice to a fault. Like any other MMOs, bad apples always exists.

[Nethereal]

I know I wasn't the one you aimed this at, but you wanna know what got said to me when I was fairly new? I and the dps I qued for Amdapoor Keep with once we both were at an ilv where we could make it past the first boss was to not only leave the dungeon, but to delete our characters, to uninstall the game, delete it and oh yeah kill ourselves. Thankfully I'm fairly sure I never saw the tank or other dps ever again. This was back during 2.0 release btw. Somehow I got better. Though I would say those who call me good or even great at healing are nutty and just haven't seen/had better.

I don't expect new players to be at whatever my level is in one pull. Especially in lower level stuff. I do however expect people to use their skills in Mt. Glug+ content. I shouldn't get anyone like the Drg I got in the burn recently that never once used disembowl or only gave themselves their eye once the whole run where I swear went out of their way to get hit by every boss mechanic that only after most of the dungeon was done the healer went hey could you please stop eating everything? I had chosen to stop trying cause why should I? I mean it's totally cool if I don't use skills on bard, right? Since no one for most of the run didn't seem to care about the DRG'S performance. Where they even aoed less than three mobs. I had to force my self not to use songs or my dots. At the end the healer went and said nice 3 man. After you know we wiped a few times on the end boss. Course that boss is fairly easy to wipe.

Honestly if this thread ever happens again. We can use this thread as a foundation to just completely ignore certain people.

I think this is the biggest loss of faith in humanity I've seen thus far on the forums.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh this is so wrong, leveling dungeons scaling can easily be abused with the right gear, scaling it nowhere near as advanced as you are saying, you can easily have gear that is too strong for low level content.

I never said it was advanced. I certainly would not call an experience which seems to steadily punish you for leveling up "advanced". I said the HP-from-player-levels-scaling on mobs greatly incentivizes low levels, more so than highest-ilvl possible for one's level. In a scaled dungeon, a BiS BfA raider after some 30 seconds in single-target would still parse no higher than a level 12 Marksman hunter, for instance. A level 49 (1 level short of BfA cap)? Typically much lower than the 12, even if he were equipped in all level 49 gear while the 12 was missing slots.

In WoW gear is everything

No; just as per here, gear will not indicate skill, and therefore will not in itself get you invited to groups. Why do you think IO is so sought after, as per your admission? I'd much rather have a i170 I can trust in a given +7 than an i210 who can't use their utility.

people with gear have been selling leveling dungeon runs because they can literally pull half the dungeons and roflstomp it, very common in BfA's pirate dungeon where a single DH/warr pulled half the dungeon and killed everything in a few minutes to feed you xp while you afk near the area and then reset the dungeon, I know I bought a few leveling runs.

The Freehold mob farms were common only during the exp pot exploit... which was before the level squish. At this point it has almost nothing to do with the power of that gear and almost everything to do with the fact that Freehold has abnormally high amounts of mobs conveniently available before its first boss, and people still being lazy enough to pay nearly as much in-game as they would in just selling game-time tokens and buying a level boost. It's the equivalent to Aurum Vale first room spam runs back in the day, or Doma Castle until-first-boss runs in Stormblood.

:: Hell, you can still pull most of those areas all at once straight out of Exile's Reach. I literally just did this with some friends new to the game. 3 level 12s and 2 30s. Only two among the party even had heirloom gear.

And in case you arent aware, the leave % in M+ is pretty high the moment a wipe happens and it means the timer will end, it doesnt matter that the run ends, people are often doing m+ for IO so if you cant time it, its bye bye for them and you can enjoy your depleted keystone.

Never said otherwise. I said there's no reason to kick people in M+ over gear (or even performance), because you cannot replace them. The only useful application for a kick is to remove someone actively sabotaging the run.

That being said, out of the 20 or so keys my PuG group clearly weren't going to time, only 1 had leavers, and that was because the tank clearly had no idea what they were doing. It's at most a 1.3% loss to loot quality if one fails the run. It does not reduce the amount of loot that drops. If you want people to stay, stop asking for gear in excess of what they could possibly gain from the run, as that leaves IO as their sole incentive to join you. Even then, going 2 minutes or so overtime only reduces your score by 2-4 points. By the time you're pushing over 15s, that's less than 2% IO loss.

[Jadedsins]

Honestly if this thread ever happens again. We can use this thread as a foundation to just completely ignore certain people.

I think this is the biggest loss of faith in humanity I've seen thus far on the forums.

I agree, this thread did make me lose some faith, but at the same time. After the asmongold and Quinn drama. Plus my own years ago. I knew some of the community has some issues.



Had to do some catch up reading, and boy you all are funny. Some of you get so mad, or offended that someone does not agree with your take. You go back like five years ago to find dirt on people. LOL. I almost spit out my tea laughing at how far people will sink.


The people saying, you don't want people to be elite. Ok, most of us don't care if some of you want tools that help people play better if they want to do it. Go for it!

The only problem some of us have is when people talked about wanting to GATE people from content. It also got point out, the only reason why you all want this is to increase your odds of getting better DF groups.


And my husband came up with the best idea on how to teach players and it got ignored