This game doesn't do enough to help people clear Ex/Savage content.

[Frizze]

Yeah, 5 pages of arguing about trusts that miss at least part of the point. Savage fights arent just about learning the mechanics, theyre also about learning how to work together with your team.

Also "the worst, most unpopular part of the game" is mahjong. But fishing is close.

[NeoDivinity]

i just love this kinda os entertainment lol, next post please.

wtf dude i play this since ARR and never got this issue if theres no Learning party just ask nicely to some clear party to let you in and tell them how far you went trough the fight or ask for your FC to help you.
Dont expect to sneak in into a farm party and not be kicked.

[DrWho2010]

the guy is literally arguing that he wants the most expensive chocolate bar in the candy store but he doesn't want to pay for it and then claims it's "inconvenient" that he can't get it for free.

[ForteNightshade]

Binary mechanics you would just make the AI immune to and put the pass/fail entirely on the player. Also, there's no "series of mechanics" that an AI couldn't respond to in a much faster and more coordinated fashion than a group of players; especially when you consider how structured FFXIV raid content is. Creating AI that could perform these mechanics would be very easy for SE. Trusts aren't stupid because making them smart is too difficult; they're stupid because they have to be less appealing than a player group.

You can't do that with mechanics that require specific stacks or positions. If the AI is immune, the player can't stand with them, resulting in their death. Regardless, you are severely underestimating the amount of programming this requires. Their stupidity is entirely because complex mechanics are very difficult to make AI respond to consistently. Trusts also do significantly lower damage than players, which is actually what makes them less appealing. They exist simply to progress players through the story who want to treat this more like a single player Final Fantasy. Not to practice mechanics, especially at the high-end level/

These trusts would exist entirely for the purpose of practicing; you wouldn't get any credit or loot for the clear. I'm aware the onus is on the player to improve and that's the point; giving players a reasonable, convenient way to improve.

We have this already. Going in and practicing yourself with other players. This idea it takes hours or fill a party and no one stays is laughable. We're both on Aether, thus you have access to the same crop of parties I do. How come I never waited more than 30 minutes joining parties to learn RDM? You haven't even attempted something and are insisting it needs a full on overhaul.

Speaking of convenience, you argued the fact even if the Trust AI could be programmed "very easily". It serves absolutely no purpose. The demographic who its aimed towards wouldn't touch it because they already don't see themselves as the problem. Look at the very thread we're posting in, where the OP blamed literally every except themselves for their inability to clear Savage. Everyone else willing to improve use the resources already available to them.

[Liam_Harper]

You're all arguing with the guy who can't even be bothering spending 10 minutes farming for 60% dps essences for DR. Of course someone who's firmly of the mindset that you don't put in effort unless you're guaranteed it will benefit you and the rest of the group are doing the same is going to rant about endgame practice parties somehow not working.

Just ignore it. Trusts are obviously not realistic, both in developer resources and the fact Savage is NOT content where you should be able to run with 7 NPC's programmed to do all the mechanics correctly.

[Goji1639]

You can't do that with mechanics that require specific stacks or positions. If the AI is immune, the player can't stand with them, resulting in their death. Regardless, you are severely underestimating the amount of programming this requires. Their stupidity is entirely because complex mechanics are very difficult to make AI respond to consistently. Trusts also do significantly lower damage than players, which is actually what makes them less appealing. They exist simply to progress players through the story who want to treat this more like a single player Final Fantasy. Not to practice mechanics, especially at the high-end level/

I think you severely overestimate how "complicated" this games position and stack mechanics are. Most mechanics in this game boil down to moving from A to B while performing some rudimentary calculation in your head; if you have all of the mechanic flags like SE does then programming an AI to simply be in the right place at the right time requires very little effort. Binary mechanics where we don't want the AI to solve the problem for the player you make the AI immune. Stack mechanics just drop the stack on a random AI and have the rest of the AI stack on it, which is the same way it would work in a normal party. Trusts doing lower damage isn't an issue; trusts aren't supposed to be easier, they're supposed to be practice. The fact that they're harder than a normal group makes them good practice.

We have this already. Going in and practicing yourself with other players. This idea it takes hours or fill a party and no one stays is laughable. We're both on Aether, thus you have access to the same crop of parties I do. How come I never waited more than 30 minutes joining parties to learn RDM? You haven't even attempted something and are insisting it needs a full on overhaul.

Trusts already exist, and we're not overhauling anything. We're just applying something the game already has to more content. Trusts are the best thing this game has done for the story content, and can be applied to more content to make this game even better.

Speaking of convenience, you argued the fact even if the Trust AI could be programmed "very easily". It serves absolutely no purpose. The demographic who its aimed towards wouldn't touch it because they already don't see themselves as the problem. Look at the very thread we're posting in, where the OP blamed literally every except themselves for their inability to clear Savage. Everyone else willing to improve use the resources already available to them.

People like the OP aren't the only people who aren't raiding, but even they'd likely still try trusts and by using trusts would be shown what the actual problem is. Can't really blame an AI that's programmed to handle the fight correctly.

Also, with Trusts everything resets when you die. So you don't have the ability to ask someone "Hey what hit me" and someone will be able to help you. It would be pretty dreadful for someone trying to learn.

Oh, and "the worst, most unpopular part of the game" is fishing.

Any mechanic that's so obtuse that you don't understand why you died you can look it up. That's the beauty of trusts; you don't have to worry about other people getting impatient while you work things out. You can take 5 minutes and hop youtube, go over some video explaining mechanics, then hop right back into the battle IMMEDIATELY to apply what you've learned. Other people really do just get in the way when you're trying to learn something.

[Goji1639]

I can honestly say I've never played a game that has had guaranteed legitimate practice and I've reached end game in:

Tera Online, Flyff, Mabinogi, Cabal Online, ESO, Black Desert Online, Grand Chase, Dragon Nest, Elsword, Kritika, Tree of Savior, and a multitude of other games that escape my mind at this moment.

All of the above games have harder content in general and if not out right no practice in general outside your basic class knowledge and skill.
The only real difference between these games and FFXIV is that they do not accept mediocrity in their player base, you have all the practice you need leading up to end game.
It's now in your hands whether you ascend out of the fire or burn down to the ashes.

So while I'm not saying we should accept mediocrity how is what FFXIV doing any worse than any other game on the market in this aspect?
Does not punishing player failure early on and rewarding inability to properly play create that much of a disconnect in the difficulty curves?

Also what games do you know of that offer 'guaranteed legitimate practice'?

Other MMORPGs get away with this because they also offer engaging small group content, solo content, and other forms of engaging endgame progression that aren't gated by ridiculous inconvenience. In terms of challenging/engaging endgame gameplay FFXIV throws all of it's eggs into Savage/Ultimate raids, and then gives the vast majority of players no convenient way to enjoy them. It's dumb.

[SaberMaxwell]

You're all arguing with the guy who can't even be bothering spending 10 minutes farming for 60% dps essences for DR. Of course someone who's firmly of the mindset that you don't put in effort unless you're guaranteed it will benefit you and the rest of the group are doing the same is going to rant about endgame practice parties somehow not working.

Just ignore it. Trusts are obviously not realistic, both in developer resources and the fact Savage is NOT content where you should be able to run with 7 NPC's programmed to do all the mechanics correctly.

Honestly this.

That and the fact he consistently ignores that this "inconvenience" is part of the difficulty itself. An mmo is a social enabling tool at its core, so endgame challenging one's ability to navigate social spaces as well as mechanical aptitude is natural imo.

I know Forte and I basically went from rags to riches (lack of better term) like this, starting with extremes and working up to Ultimate farms.

It's okay if people think it's dumb, it's okay if not everybody does it. The tools are there, they're evident, and they're usable for anybody who wants to give it a shot.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I think you severely overestimate how "complicated" this games position and stack mechanics are. Most mechanics in this game boil down to moving from A to B while performing some rudimentary calculation in your head; if you have all of the mechanic flags like SE does then programming an AI to simply be in the right place at the right time requires very little effort. Binary mechanics where we don't want the AI to solve the problem for the player you make the AI immune. Stack mechanics just drop the stack on a random AI and have the rest of the AI stack on it, which is the same way it would work in a normal party. Trusts doing lower damage isn't an issue; trusts aren't supposed to be easier, they're supposed to be practice. The fact that they're harder than a normal group makes them good practice.

All the spellcasters Trust AIs (sometimes even the other) aren’t even capable of dodging AoEs consistently in a rather open space and you’d expect them to perform some mech that requires specific, tighter positioning?

Not to mention, they do not attack -at all- while performing/dodging mechanics—something that extreme/savage/ultimates are littered with. This is one of the reason why Trust NPCs has lower damage potential than human player. They can go on performing several succession of mechanics but not damaging anything in that window (if they succeed, at all). This can only do one from two thing: (1) They inflate Trust NPCs offense so much that they’re basically ‘carrying’ the human player or; (2) They will never help player clear anything because they just don’t contribute enough. Neither of those makes the human player feel any better.

Nay man—sorry to burst your bubble—you really -are- overestimating Trusts.

[Goji1639]

Honestly this.

That and the fact he consistently ignores that this "inconvenience" is part of the difficulty itself. An mmo is a social enabling tool at its core, so endgame challenging one's ability to navigate social spaces as well as mechanical aptitude is natural imo.

I know Forte and I basically went from rags to riches (lack of better term) like this, starting with extremes and working up to Ultimate farms.

It's okay if people think it's dumb, it's okay if not everybody does it. The tools are there, they're evident, and they're usable for anybody who wants to give it a shot.

There's really no reason NOT to have trusts there as a more convenient option. I think a lot of the people here PREFER that most people don't do this content.

If it were convenient enough where most players could reasonably learn it then you'd probably all start realizing how easy this content is. Clear %'s would be way up; PuGs would be stomping it easily even before nerfs, and the illusion that this game has ANY difficult content would disappear. I believe you all want this stuff to be gated by inconvenience simply so you can feel special.