This game doesn't do enough to help people clear Ex/Savage content.

[Goji1639]

Are you talking about trusts for extreme or savage content?

Yep.

Aside from many other issues, they'd never make Trusts available for extreme, Savage, or Ultimate because the devs would then be officiating strats. That's a line they'll probably never cross because that itself can create tension--heck, look at the number of people who subscribe to "Happy strats" as gospel for a lot of content, and any who do otherwise cause great discontent in a group. Maybe that's not so much a thing anymore, I don't pf much, but back in HW and ARR God help you if you disobeyed Mr Happy's strats. It'd be even worse with SE official strats.

The other big reason, is because figuring out what the mechanics are and how to handle them is itself part of the fight, and it's a part that would vanish if SE official strats were published via Trust runs of Savage. The world race would basically be destroyed.

All that to say I disagree trusts are the answer. They don't need to be everywhere, and though they could be neat in some 8 man instances I disagree that they should be in anything Extreme or up.

Trust runs can unlock a week or two after the content releases if we're worried about world first races. People who aren't trying for world firsts can wait to practice, and always just look up strats on youtube anyways. Trusts wouldn't be official strategies any more than they're official strategies for the content they already exist for; in some cases trust npc's are just immune to mechanics.

Trusts are the answer and definitely need to be everywhere. Otherwise the vast majority of the population just won't ever bother with the content because there's no good way to learn it.

It's even more than just making strats official. Part of the difficulty of harder content is getting everyone to do the mechanic without dying, it's why prog takes the time it does, trusts do not provide the human error element and would trivialize the content.

Trusts would be for practice; they wouldn't count as official clears.

[Absurdity]

Aside from many other issues, they'd never make Trusts available for extreme, Savage, or Ultimate because the devs would then be officiating strats. That's a line they'll probably never cross because that itself can create tension--heck, look at the number of people who subscribe to "Happy strats" as gospel for a lot of content, and any who do otherwise cause great discontent in a group. Maybe that's not so much a thing anymore, I don't pf much, but back in HW and ARR God help you if you disobeyed Mr Happy's strats. It'd be even worse with SE official strats.

Pretty much still the same, except now it's whatever strat comes out first, and then people wonder why they can't clear the fight with terrible week 1 strats.

[Warlyx]

Aside from many other issues, they'd never make Trusts available for extreme, Savage, or Ultimate because the devs would then be officiating strats. That's a line they'll probably never cross because that itself can create tension--heck, look at the number of people who subscribe to "Happy strats" as gospel for a lot of content, and any who do otherwise cause great discontent in a group. Maybe that's not so much a thing anymore, I don't pf much, but back in HW and ARR God help you if you disobeyed Mr Happy's strats. It'd be even worse with SE official strats.

The other big reason, is because figuring out what the mechanics are and how to handle them is itself part of the fight, and it's a part that would vanish if SE official strats were published via Trust runs of Savage. The world race would basically be destroyed.

All that to say I disagree trusts are the answer. They don't need to be everywhere, and though they could be neat in some 8 man instances I disagree that they should be in anything Extreme or up.

im up for this , but no rewards , a way to learn the fight with trust would be cool

[van_arn]

The solution for stuff like this is trusts. You should be able to run every raid of every difficulty with a trust.

It shouldn't reward any loot, titles, achievements, etc. but it should exist as an option to learn the content and practice. If we wanted to go even deeper into it, we could use this as a way to "certify" people for said content to varying degrees. Things like DPS, uptime, flawless execution of mechanics can earn you little proficiency tags that will make statics more confident in bringing you along, even if you don't have a real clear under your belt yet.

Learning this kind of content has always been a catch22 in MMORPGs; no group wants you if you're not experienced, but you can't get experience without a group. There NEEDS to be ways to get that experience without a group.

How about no. Learning higher-end content is one of the most social pieces of content in the game, and that’s assuming you even count mashing your keyboard at catpeople in limsa or in fc chat as content in its own right.

It’s something to do *with* people, rather than just another thing to solo.

[SturmChurro]

How about no. Learning higher-end content is one of the most social pieces of content in the game, and that’s assuming you even count mashing your keyboard at catpeople in limsa or in fc chat as content in its own right.

It’s something to do *with* people, rather than just another thing to solo.

If it would be anything like trust dungeons, you could just AFK extreme and savage clears.

[Goji1639]

How about no. Learning higher-end content is one of the most social pieces of content in the game, and that’s assuming you even count mashing your keyboard at catpeople in limsa or in fc chat as content in its own right.

It’s something to do *with* people, rather than just another thing to solo.

Oh yea, sitting in PF for 3 hours just to get a group together that disbands in 15 minutes is one of the greatest social experiences you'll have in any MMORPG. There's a reason the vast majority of players don't bother with Savage, and it's not because it's even remotely difficult; it's because most people can't get any good practice in because of how inconvenient and awful your options for breaking into Savage content are.

I think most people who already have their statics situated don't want the rest of the players to be able to get a foot in the door for Savage tier raiding. The more people that can actually learn and clear it the less special they feel.

If it would be anything like trust dungeons, you could just AFK extreme and savage clears.

It'll be scaled for Savage, obviously, and if Trust dungeons are any indication it'll actually be more difficult to clear the content with a trust than with a decent group, because you'll be responsible for knowing and dealing with every targeted mechanic, healers won't raise you if you die and things tend to die more slowly.

[van_arn]

Oh yea, sitting in PF for 3 hours just to get a group together that disbands in 15 minutes is one of the greatest social experiences you'll have in any MMORPG. There's a reason the vast majority of players don't bother with Savage, and it's not because it's even remotely difficult; it's because most people can't get any good practice in because of how inconvenient and awful your options for breaking into Savage content are.


It'll be scaled for Savage, obviously, and if Trust dungeons are any indication it'll actually be more difficult to clear the content with a trust than with a decent group, because you'll be responsible for knowing and dealing with every targeted mechanic, and healers won't raise you if you die.

The reason the vast majority of people don’t break into savage has more to do with not caring enough to get to the point where you can break into savage, and that’s okay.

[Goji1639]

The reason the vast majority of people don’t break into savage has more to do with not caring enough to get to the point where you can break into savage, and that’s okay.

Right, but the reason WHY people don't care enough to break in is because the process to break in is inconvenient and terrible. That's not a good thing. Make learning an actual good experience that gets results and a lot more people will want to learn.

There's no negative to this; the only possible result is a bigger, better equipped raiding community.

[Dreamsoap]

Oh yea, sitting in PF for 3 hours just to get a group together that disbands in 15 minutes is one of the greatest social experiences you'll have in any MMORPG. There's a reason the vast majority of players don't bother with Savage, and it's not because it's even remotely difficult; it's because most people can't get any good practice in because of how inconvenient and awful your options for breaking into Savage content are.

I think most people who already have their statics situated don't want the rest of the players to be able to get a foot in the door for Savage tier raiding. The more people that can actually learn and clear it the less special they feel.

That's a really weird assumption. Majority of people who cleared and farm their glamours/ mounts/ BiS have no real reason to go back in except to mentor their friends and/ or FC members which happens all the time. I'm going back into E4S for my static friends who haven't cleared yet. But I'm not spending hours wiping on difficult content for random people I've never met unless I happen to be in a really specific mood and have some guarantee these randoms are actually trying, which in PF is typically 2-3 out of the 8 people. The main reason party finder practice parties don't stick around is because a lot of people progging in there don't have any idea how to really play their class/role and immediately resort to deflecting their mistakes as everyone else's faults. The others are just hoping for a clear and the moment they realize it's a real prog party they leave after 2-3 attempts. In both cases, these types plainly aren't ready for the content.

The only solution left is making your own static. It's not some magical exclusive group gated by logkeepers that you have to hope you're invited to one day. Literally go make one and ask your friends for interest, ask on reddit and ask in discord servers. There's plenty set up for pugging savage and recruiting for statics for any given data center. Just be clear you're going in green and you're looking for similar players. My 1st ever static all met in eureka and had never done savage before. Our first fight we cleared was E4S and we learned a lot about our jobs along the way. Alternatively if you still want to be carried, just join an FC that has a static who are willing to carry FC members once they've cleared.

[Goji1639]

That's a really weird assumption. Majority of people who cleared and farm their glamours/ mounts/ BiS have no real reason to go back in except to mentor their friends and/ or FC members which happens all the time. I'm going back into E4S for my static friends who haven't cleared yet. But I'm not spending hours wiping on difficult content for random people I've never met unless I happen to be in a really specific mood and have some guarantee these randoms are actually trying, which in PF is typically 2-3 out of the 8 people. The main reason party finder practice parties don't stick around is because a lot of people progging in there don't have any idea how to really play their class/role and immediately resort to deflecting their mistakes as everyone else's faults. The others are jus hoping for a clear and the moment they realize it's a real prog party they leave after 2-3 attempts. In both cases, these types plainly aren't ready for the content.

The only solution left is making your own static. It's not some magical exclusive group gated by logkeepers that you have to hope you're invited to one day. Literally go make one and ask your friends for interest, ask on reddit and ask in discord servers. There's plenty set up for pugging savage and recruiting for statics for any given data center. Just be clear you're going in green and you're looking for similar players. My 1st ever static all met in eureka and had never done savage before. Our first fight we cleared was E4S, we learned a lot along the way. Alternatively if you still want to be carried, just join an FC that has a static who are willing to carry FC members once they've cleared.

It's not really a weird assumption. The only reason why people would be against trusts for the purposes of learning is if they in reality don't want more people to be able to learn. There's no other reason to oppose it.

Also, all of your suggestions are terrible. No one wants to sit on reddit or discord for hours begging just for an opportunity to practice. What I'm suggesting is a MUCH better way to learn. Then once you know the content and are confident then you can do whatever you need to get a group together for your first real run, and it'll probably have a good chance of success if everyone took advantage of the MUCH better way to learn.