Zepla and Asmongold discuss FF14 vs. WoW

[Liam_Harper]

It's sort of sad when he mentioned that WoW players seem to hate WoW together, but over here (flaws aside) we like this game overall and we're having fun. Feels like you're stuck doing chores, there's a party next door that people are enjoying and you feel left out. Which is probably why interest in ff14 has picked up so much lately. FF14 hasn't suddenly become better but WoW players have been miserable and want to come and join in the party and be able to have fun too.
It reminds me of playing through StB and ShB MSQ and just being fascinated that I was enjoying it so much. Playing WoW, I'd convinced myself that it was me, that I wasn't having fun because I'd been gaming too long and the genre had become stale and I needed to learn to appreciate what I had better. I saw many players say the same there. It's nice just playing a game and realizing "hey, I'm having fun, this is great!".

You can say "it's just a game" which is true to an extent, but the video also is a reminder that for a lot of people MMO's are a part of their life. A social hobby they enjoy and even something that gets them through rough times. There's no shame with being invested in a game. I do hope something happens from this wave and Blizzard realize they lost all touch with fun. Metrics, grinds, player retention tricks and treadmills look great on paper but aren't enjoyable. I feel bad for players who loved what WoW had to offer to the point that it became a piece of their life and have to abandon it.

[linayar]

Annie with the Ship of Theseus philosophy question described it perfectly. If you replace literally every core system that people fell in love with is it really the same MMO? What I honestly find hilarious about all of this?

If you consider an MMO as a changing game, then yes, it is the same MMO. If you consider MMO as a static game, then no, it is not the same MMO.

The answer, as with the thought experiment, depends on how you recognize things, not necessarily in the reality of the structure of the thing in question.

[Infindox]

In FF14 you have to grind item level. If you refuse it you will be locked out from content, even from the MSQ. Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.


Cheers

... It is though? If you are actively playing the game you will either have the gil for crafted gear, tomes to get gear, another currency to get gear, or you will have the gave give it to you. MSQ has a very low bar for the gear that the only way you would have an issue is if you literally only log on to do MSQ and then never touch the game again until the next one.

[Eimdal]

It's an interesting stream but Zepla does not tell the whole truth to Asmongold, she doesn't speak at any time about the lack of raid content in shadowbringers one of the main problems of this expansion for the raiding community of the game and a very important point to the wow community.

[Y2K21]

What is the point of classic when you try to insert those sleazy cash shop tactics in a game meant to enjoy or relive nostalgia ? Christ.

Because people may not like Vanilla and would rather play TBC.

If you replace literally every core system that people fell in love with is it really the same MMO?

Except the point was even shown in Classic where people were saying Classic wasnt the true Classic experience because of the community. The MMO community has changed so drastically over the years -- which is why things like a Classic are cyclical in nature rather than progressive.

Everything being pointed out as a strength in FF14 right now I remember a lot of people calling weaknesses for years. Just the idea of not having alts as a normal things on multiple characters was a big issue for WoW players for years BUT that was before they added so many convoluted systems that made having an alt a total pain.

I cant get into alts for the life of me -- but people who honestly think SL is alt-unfriendly must have amnesia to forget what actual alt-unfriendliness was in Legion and BFA, in my honest opinion.

[linayar]

It's an interesting stream but Zepla does not tell the whole truth to Asmongold, she doesn't speak at any time about the lack of raid content in shadowbringers one of the main problems of this expansion for the raiding community of the game and a very important point to the wow community.

Asmongold is not trying to replace WoW, but to supplement it, and FFXIV is good game for that. If he reaches the endgame, he can then judge for himself how much he wants to invest in the endgame and whether FFXIV has enough for him to play on the side when not playing WoW.

I cant get into alts for the life of me -- but people who honestly think SL is alt-unfriendly must have amnesia to forget what actual alt-unfriendliness was in Legion and BFA, in my honest opinion.

I think it's a cumulative effect. Even if Shadowlands is more alt friendly than the previous two expansions, if it's still not friendly enough, it could still be three (or more, or less, depending on how each individual player feels) consecutive alt unfriendly expansions. And I also heard that Shadowlands was advertised to being alt friendly. If true, then that could hurt it even more if people perceived it to be the opposite.

[Larirawiel]

... It is though? If you are actively playing the game you will either have the gil for crafted gear, tomes to get gear, another currency to get gear, or you will have the gave give it to you. MSQ has a very low bar for the gear that the only way you would have an issue is if you literally only log on to do MSQ and then never touch the game again until the next one.

Hi, if you actively play WoW then you will also not have problems to get the reputation, soul ash, rescued souls, whatever to unlock the content. The point is, such artificial limits are to control how fast a player can consume the content. Maybe those limits do not feel annoying for long term FF14 players. But i come from WoW Classic. And i have hit the item level wall very quickly and it felt very disturbing for me. I am at maximal level but then not really maximal level etc. It feels like Square Enix tries to protect the players from themself.



Cheers

[ItMe]

Asmongold is not trying to replace WoW, but to supplement it, and FFXIV is good game for that. If he reaches the endgame, he can then judge for himself how much he wants to invest in the endgame and whether FFXIV has enough for him to play on the side when not playing WoW.

This is a good point and I think it's something a lot of people are missing (not necessarily people in this thread. I'm not trying to call anyone out here).

[Vahlnir]

It's sort of sad when he mentioned that WoW players seem to hate WoW together, but over here (flaws aside) we like this game overall and we're having fun. Feels like you're stuck doing chores, there's a party next door that people are enjoying and you feel left out. Which is probably why interest in ff14 has picked up so much lately. FF14 hasn't suddenly become better but WoW players have been miserable and want to come and join in the party and be able to have fun too.
It reminds me of playing through StB and ShB MSQ and just being fascinated that I was enjoying it so much. Playing WoW, I'd convinced myself that it was me, that I wasn't having fun because I'd been gaming too long and the genre had become stale and I needed to learn to appreciate what I had better. I saw many players say the same there. It's nice just playing a game and realizing "hey, I'm having fun, this is great!".

You can say "it's just a game" which is true to an extent, but the video also is a reminder that for a lot of people MMO's are a part of their life. A social hobby they enjoy and even something that gets them through rough times. There's no shame with being invested in a game. I do hope something happens from this wave and Blizzard realize they lost all touch with fun. Metrics, grinds, player retention tricks and treadmills look great on paper but aren't enjoyable. I feel bad for players who loved what WoW had to offer to the point that it became a piece of their life and have to abandon it.

It's nice seeing someone like yourself understand the situation so well. This is exactly how things are right now, and why I had to abandon that slowly but surely sinking ship. I didn't want to, but the game just isn't for me anymore when it used to be made for all types. WoW was a major part of my life in many ways, through the good times and the bad. It's a shame that it has fallen so far from grace. For me, it was the best game I had ever played and the one game I had played the longest. Since day 1 I had been logging in almost every day, at least until WoD and BfA where I took a lot of breaks. Shadowlands...that was it for me. And it makes me sad.

[Larirawiel]

Hi, here is the complete version of the discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7nz_fw4E_U


Cheers