About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

[Liam_Harper]

I explained why it's a waste of time, even did the math for you.

You did no math.

Math is: Good Fragments are now 1 cluster. On average you get an Essence per 2 fragments. You need 5 DR runs per Relic now. On average you need 10 Clusters per relic.

Most players get significantly more just leveling in Bozja from stray mobs that wander into Fates. I had 50 by the time I'd leveled from 15-25 in Zadnor. You can farm them quite fast in a Cluster group too.

At this stage you might as well just admit you're lazy and don't really care about other players. People would respect you for the honestly more than trying to make up convoluted arguments that make no sense to justify yourself and accusing other players of being trolls for pointing out the flaws in those arguments.

[Goji1639]

You did no math.

Math is: Good Fragments are now 1 cluster. On average you get an Essence per 2 fragments. You need 5 DR runs per Relic now. On average you need 10 Clusters per relic.

Most players get significantly more just leveling in Bozja from stray mobs that wander into Fates. I had 50 by the time I'd leveled from 15-25 in Zadnor. You can farm them quite fast in a Cluster group too.

At this stage you might as well just admit you're lazy and don't really care about other players. People would respect you for the honestly more than trying to make up convoluted arguments that make no sense to justify yourself and accusing other players of being trolls for pointing out the flaws in those arguments.

No, I did provide Math showing it's less efficient. It's a waste of time, that much isn't deniable. It wastes far less time now, which is fair enough, but it's still a waste of time.

If people are getting enough essences without farming nowadays then great, no problem. I'm just saying that if you run out there's absolutely no reason to ever farm essences if you're only in it for the relic, and I'm 100% right.

As for whether or not it's lazy, that's immaterial. I've been saying this whole time this is what's most efficient for me (the relic hunter); not that it's what helps everyone else. If you agree that it's the most efficient approach, but think I'm lazy or self-centered for doing it, I really don't care. The opinions and "respect" of the people on this board mean very little to me.

[Liam_Harper]

As for whether or not it's lazy, that's immaterial. I've been saying this whole time this is what's most efficient for me (the relic hunter); not that it's what helps everyone else. If you agree that it's the most efficient approach, but think I'm lazy or self-centered for doing it, I really don't care. The opinions and "respect" of the people on this board mean very little to me.

So, from a self-centered perspective, it doesn't benefit you to farm essence when you can just walk in. You know it contributes nothing to the group, but you don't care because it doesn't contribute enough for you. Perfectly fair to feel that way, people won't respect you for it but that's another debate, it's better than arguing a false point over 17 pages.

You're wrong on efficiency because PF Essence runs exist. 18 minutes average per run x5 + 15 minutes Cluster grind + 15 minutes setting up groups is much less than 45 minutes average x5. But that's your own choice.

[Goji1639]

So, from a self-centered perspective, it doesn't benefit you to farm essence when you can just walk in. You know it contributes nothing to the group, but you don't care because it doesn't contribute enough for you. Perfectly fair to feel that way, people won't respect you for it but that's another debate, it's better than arguing a false point over 17 pages.

You're wrong on efficiency because PF Essence runs exist. 18 minutes average per run x5 + 15 minutes Cluster grind + 15 minutes setting up groups is much less than 45 minutes average x5. But that's your own choice.

I haven't been arguing a false point; I've been arguing efficiency this whole time. My entire point has been that farming essences for DF is a waste of time, and I'm 100% correct. People calling me lazy, a leech, whatever were never addressing the actual issue; they were just throwing out petty insults to avoid addressing my points.

PF essence runs are a different issue; they require essences so you have to farm. I never said I should be allowed into a PF speed run without farming essences.

Youre the guy going on rants about how the devs are lazy and manipulative because you dont like bozja content and everyone who is enjoying essences and lost actions are lemmings or sheep.

You might wanna go outside and touch some grass, instead of faffing around in content you clearly resent.

It's definitely lazy and manipulative, but I don't care if you enjoy that. Plenty of people love cheap, lazy mobile games and I don't fault them for it. The people who skirt the issue and try to paint the devs as altruists who were promoting human decency are definitely lemmings, though.

The devs just came up with a lazy grind to keep you all farming in circles for negative output, because that's easier than designing a reward structure. If you're enjoying it then god bless, but plenty of people will see it for what it is and avoid it. Doesn't mean they won't still want their relic, though.

What technicals? The "using essence only saves 1 minute" number that you pulled out of your hat? How did you verify and prove this?

I provided the Math earlier in the thread. It was obviously an approximation based on normalized input, but the result is basically that a skirmisher essence saves a slow run 24 seconds. Rounding up to a minute is a very conservative and generous way to account for the inevitable variations in the data that would result from real application.

[Nethereal]

I haven't been arguing a false point; I've been arguing efficiency this whole time. My entire point has been that farming essences for DF is a waste of time, and I'm 100% correct. People calling me lazy, a leech, whatever were never addressing the actual issue; they were just throwing out petty insults to avoid addressing my points.

The irony here is palpable.

You've had this conversation in 3 different threads, been disproven in each of them and in one of them you were even given video evidence.
Combine this with the nerfed requirements from last patch you honestly have to be intentionally being intellectually dishonest or you're an amazing troll.

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

I won't deny it though if everyone in NA has your mindset it really is pointless to do casual content in df.

[Vahlnir]

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

Correct, it's not about any of those things. They just don't want to be wrong. What they will likely do, however, is argue until everyone else gives up out of frustration and then say "See? SEE?! I WAS RIGHT!"

[Goji1639]

The irony here is palpable.

You've had this conversation in 3 different threads, been disproven in each of them and in one of them you were even given video evidence.
Combine this with the nerfed requirements from last patch you honestly have to be intentionally being intellectually dishonest or you're an amazing troll.

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

I won't deny it though if everyone in NA has your mindset it really is pointless to do casual content in df.

Oh gee, look. Another post of someone ignoring every point I've made and just saying I'm wrong without providing any argument, logic, math or even an attempt at a thought. Just bringing up old threads with no context and "videos," that have supposedly proven me wrong, where I wouldn't have even the slightest clue what you're talking about. It's amazing how you people stick around here but go to such great lengths to avoid the actual discussion.

Correct, it's not about any of those things. They just don't want to be wrong. What they will likely do, however, is argue until everyone else gives up out of frustration and then say "See? SEE?! I WAS RIGHT!"

Seriously, what have you done here that could even abstractly be considered proving me wrong? All you people do is avoid addressing any points I've made, and just look to each other for reassurance. I've been doing ALL of the legwork in terms of providing actual sound argument, while you all do your best to avoid contributing anything worthwhile and just cheerlead each other.

It's not that I don't want to be wrong, it's that I'm not wrong until you provide SOMETHING that punches a hole in what I'm saying. The Math and Logic I've provided are what prove me right, and if you want me to be wrong you have to address those things. I know you won't, though, because you're not comfortable doing anything here but fishing for reassurance.

No you're not.

Sums up the level of discourse I'm getting from the people I'm "discussing" this with nicely.

[Vahlnir]

Oh gee, look. Another post of someone ignoring every point I've made and just saying I'm wrong without providing any argument, logic, math or even an attempt at a thought. Just bringing up old threads with no context and "videos," that have supposedly proven me wrong, where I wouldn't have even the slightest clue what you're talking about. It's amazing how you people stick around here but go to such great lengths to avoid the actual discussion.



Seriously, what have you done here that could even abstractly be considered proving me wrong? All you people do is avoid addressing any points I've made, and just look to each other for reassurance. I've been doing ALL of the legwork in terms of providing actual sound argument, while you all do your best to avoid contributing anything worthwhile and just cheerlead each other.

It's not that I don't want to be wrong, it's that I'm not wrong until you provide SOMETHING that punches a hole in what I'm saying. The Math and Logic I've provided are what prove me right, and if you want me to be wrong you have to address those things. I know you won't, though, because you're not comfortable doing anything here but fishing for reassurance.



Sums up the level of discourse I'm getting from the people I'm "discussing" this with nicely.

You have been presented with the facts, and there has been many holes punched through your arguments and you have had your logic completely disintegrated like a Savage tank buster deleting a healer from the game. Multiple times in multiple threads. You just don't want to hear them. Just because you don't want to hear them doesn't mean they don't exist. But, since this is the case with you, we are all wasting our time trying to get you to see that. And it is for that reason I will be bowing out of this thread. Good luck. You're going to need it.

[Kaurhz]

x

I don't mean to be that one guy; once again. But the reason people aren't listening to you is that you aren't really creating a good argument in the first place, and are just looking for an excuse in order to rationalize doing the absolute bare minimum to get by without having regard for yours, and most importantly other peoples' time. What I find really strange is the time that you've spent here arguing bad takes is time that you could have spent farming for essences.

You talk about not being good from the perspective of a farmer, but if we look at the average run in duty finder, this is approximately 45 minutes, and that is taking into account with some people actually using essences. Comparative to everyone using a modicum of offensive essences in addition to some support essences crunches that 45 minutes into an approximate run of 15 minutes. This means that you on average will save you approximately 1 minute and 20~ seconds per player on the essence, and again, these are average scenarios. The only reason these values aren't even a bigger disparity is that you actually have some individuals in a run that actually respect their own time and the time of other people in the instance.

Across the course of a whole relic, this turns out to be 30 minutes per run or 30*7.5 per relic. This means per relic the collective group will save approximately 200 minutes per relic, or 3 hours and 20 minutes. Across the course of all 17 relics, this turns out to be around 63 hours saved by respecting your own time and the time of other people. You are simply wrong on these bases.

If everyone were to go by your misapprehension then we'd be looking at a consistent minimum time of around 50-55 minutes. If this were the case, then even taking into account the buff, it'd be quicker for people to just do premade Palace of the Dead.

If you don't want to use essences for whatever reason then by all means go ahead, but don't try and justify it on the premise that you're playing efficiently when you clearly are doing anything but that. You just don't respect other peoples' time, simple as that.