Yoshida on "carrying" other people

[Goji1639]

I agree that DF alliance raids should just be easy. Throwing 24 random people together and making it "punishing" in ANY way is just going to be dumb and frustrating. That should be the relaxing, idgaf content where as long as people are moving in the correct direction and pressing a few buttons everything's gonna work out fine.

Savage tier 4-man and SOLO content is something this game sorely needs, though. This game has ZERO challenging content that isn't a massive pain in the ass to organize for.

[Theodric]

If such an approach means that we get more content along the lines of Delubrum Reginae then I'm all for it. I thought it had a lot of interesting mechanics and boss fights yet people still had to pay attention if they wished to avoid dying. At the same time, multiple people dying there does not generally risk a wipe for the entire group.

[GeminiReed]

Also twice come ruin from delubrum. That would incentive learning and doing mechanics more many players dont improve because they have no incentive to improve.

The snapshotting of this game is so awful that you can be well out of the mechanic yet still get tagged. Vuln stacks and damage downs are bad enough. The only thing getting insta-killed because the client and server disagree on position encourages is rage quitting.

[Shurrikhan]

I agree that DF alliance raids should just be easy. Throwing 24 random people together and making it "punishing" in ANY way is just going to be dumb and frustrating. That should be the relaxing, idgaf content where as long as people are moving in the correct direction and pressing a few buttons everything's gonna work out fine.

Hard disagree. While it shouldn't feel notably "punishing" nor use that brand of difficulty as its selling point, alliance raids do not need to be literally zero-responsibility face-rolls, either.

There are also oceans of specific and general difficulty factors that separate the feeling of being PKed or wiped by a few from "idgaf" content.

[Missbone]

I think the difficulty is fine the way it is now, old stuff should always be an easy and relaxed rush if you use a Dungeon Finder. For those who want a challenge there is still the ultimate and savage content which also still can be challenging. If they talk about difficulty they should readjust some old MSQ dungeons. A few of them are a real p.i.t.a. and feel more like a content blocker than anything else. A good example is the last dungeon from HW where the last boss feels more like one from a savage raid than from a normal dungeon. I tryied it with 3 different groups via the DutyFinder (i qued as dd), which all wiped always at the last boss, before i gave up and paid a level 80 player to do it unsynced with me.

Btw. i think the raid difficulty is hard enough for an old causal player like me. I usually always die 10-15 times during a max level alliance raid because i cant keep up with all the stuff the bosses do, so if anything i would chose to make them easier or to spam the actions less frequent atleast.

[Goji1639]

Hard disagree. While it shouldn't feel notably "punishing" nor use that brand of difficulty as its selling point, alliance raids do not need to be literally zero-responsibility face-rolls, either.

There are also oceans of specific and general difficulty factors that separate the feeling of being PKed or wiped by a few from "idgaf" content.

I'm sure none of us will ever agree on where exactly the line should be, but DF alliance raids are the content that should slant the hardest towards being VERY casual. DF alliance raids are the situation where a concerted team effort is the least likely and the most difficult, so why pretend it's a good idea? DR, for example, is just punishing and long enough for you all to be having aneurisms on the forums every time you get paired with a few slackers.

DR introduced some fun quasi-punishing ideas that would've been really cool in a 4 person setting where communication and coordination is less of an annoyance. Small groups/Solo are where you can really get the most creative and crazy with punishing content, so that's where the effort should be.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm sure none of us will ever agree on where exactly the line should be, but DF alliance raids are the content that should slant the hardest towards being VERY casual. DF alliance raids are the situation where a concerted team effort is the least likely and the most difficult, so why pretend it's a good idea?

Again, you're making a false ultimatum here. Coordination across a 24-man raid does not necessarily have to be any more wide spread than across 8-man content, or even a 4-man. It all depends on the exact mechanics used. There are plenty of ways to retain personal responsibilities without making the content exponentially (or even linearly) more punishing with increased player count.

Would that always be for the best? No, probably not. But it's silly to think that mechanical engagement asked of players and how "punishing" content feels are one and the same. They're not. Difficulty isn't just a matter of finely sorted levels but also the particular design decisions contributing to it that will differ that difficulty across prior exposure, awareness, player count, etc., etc.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I’ve noticed a lot of things this expansion have been much much easier and dumbed down. Base ShB dungeons were pretty good in terms of difficulty, but idk wtf happened in the post patch dungeons. Anamnesis,heroes gauntlet,matoya’s relict, and paglthan mob packs die so fast and the bosses are just absolutely simple.Lunar Bahamut is a good measure of difficulty but that’s one boss in an entire dungeon. Alli raids have been absolutely simple, including tower. Tower just feels like 90% of it is stand to the side, now stand in the middle, occasionally look to the outside of the arena for stuff. I was incredibly disappointed in the raid barring the 3rd boss that had some unique stuff. The thing that concerns me the most is Yoshi p stated previously they want to make 6.0 dungeons even more streamlined than the ones this expansion which....my first question is why? Secondly, how can they possibly be more streamlined than this expansions’ dungeons? I get they shouldn’t be savage level difficulty but come on. At least make them engaging.

As far as my opinion on alliance raid difficulty, i think it should be tweaked up a bit. Something like orbonne level for all 3 raids. We face powerful enemies in them, i want to feel like i’m actually fighting something powerful, not just having simple-minded mechanics back to back. Orbonne was amazing until they decided to nerf thunder god cid because people whined and complained he was too hard.

[Goji1639]

Again, you're making a false ultimatum here. Coordination across a 24-man raid does not necessarily have to be any more wide spread than across 8-man content, or even a 4-man. It all depends on the exact mechanics used. There are plenty of ways to retain personal responsibilities without making the content exponentially (or even linearly) more punishing with increased player count.

Would that always be for the best? No, probably not. But it's silly to think that mechanical engagement asked of players and how "punishing" content feels are one and the same. They're not. Difficulty isn't just a matter of finely sorted levels but also the particular design decisions contributing to it that will differ that difficulty across prior exposure, awareness, player count, etc., etc.

Coordination and individual execution across 24 players is far more limited than 4 players, especially when you're dealing with randoms. It's just a logistical fact. The effort put into making DR mechanically challenging is wasted on a raid; they could've done more with it and it would've been much more fun as small group content.

No matter how you look at it raids are the WORST place to introduce complexity and punishment. I'm not saying it's impossible to make it work; I'm saying that making it work is the worst possible use of that creativity and effort. DR could've been more than just an annoying time-sink with a few cool ideas if it weren't an alliance raid.

[Shurrikhan]

Coordination and individual execution across 24 players is far more limited than 4 players, especially when you're dealing with randoms. It's just a logistical fact.

Again, only if and when the mechanics of said encounter involve more than 4 players at a time, directly or indirectly.

No matter how you look at it raids are the WORST place to introduce complexity and punishment.

No one has asked that 24-mans be uniquely complicated and/or punishing -- only, for instance, that they not be dumbed down to a complete snoozefest per your suggestion.

DR could've been more than just an annoying time-sink with a few cool ideas if it weren't an alliance raid.

Very, very little of DR's being a problem stems directly or uniquely from its being an alliance raid. Its design is a sh*tshow, sure, but for several reasons.