Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

[Iscah]

Alisae and Alphinaud have the luxury of a walking plot device on their side in the form of the Warrior of Darkness that solves all their issues before they're forced to resort to the same extremes as their opponents.

So you seem to be saying they should be judged on what they may or may not hypothetically do in a situation they haven't had to face?

[Alleo]

Of course its a matter of perspective, and nothing wrong with that in itself. But I am getting tired of being called slow, sheep, tempered, having knee jerk reactions just because I do not share the same perspective about the people that even SE paints as the villains or because I do like the good guys (or heaven forbid still thing that Hydealyn will not be horrible)

I do have no problems with being wrong. Sometimes I forget stuff, sometimes there is a huge difference between languages and sometimes one can be a bit blind after all we all have our favorites. Thus maybe the WoL and Scions have shown a sadistic glee towards their enemies and I may have forgotten that, so thats why it would be really nice to have examples if such a statement is done. After all I could also say that all Garlean are horrible because they eat children for breakfast. I am quite sure that people would want to have quote for that.

But now you even write that the WoL solves their problems otherwise they would resort to the same extremes which is imo not true. You cant just point at someone and declare that they will surely act the same way as someone else. Alisaie may have stated that they would have reacted similiar when it would have been their families but the thing is, that they have not been in the situation, heck they do not even have the same level of power. Maybe they would also become like the Ascians and in another story they would be the one opposing us. Or maybe they would have been the ones following Azem, trying to find a solution where it started thus not even being part of Zodiark or Hydealyn. Or maybe they would have been part of the people sacrificing themselves for others. There are so many ways someone can go in their lifes.

Should we judge Zenos on the actions he is doing now, or should we go and be like "well if Zenos had loveable parents, grew up in another country that does not have "might makes right" as their moral code he would not have been that way and might be a hero fighting for the people".

We should judge on how the characters behaves now. We can take their background into consideration, but we should mostly look at the things they have done. Not that they could do in a very hypothetical situation that probably wont ever happen.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Uh, not all the city states have overcome that. Gridania still has racists and elementals to deal with. Uldah still condones slavery. Just because it's in the past doesnt mean its just swept under the rug. The past defines peoples actions, and you cant just say oh well, since they all of a sudden are doing things for the better, it all makes up for the horrible things theyve done.Uldah literally zombified a city. Thats pretty similar to body altering and "chemical warfare" that Garlemald has done. People seem to have this major double standard for their precious scions or wol or city states that they blind themselves from the truth. The WoL and scions were complicit in the Doma Castle flooding. The WoL and scions were complicit with manipulating tribes to fight their war for them. These are both considered bad things. It was for war yes. But it doesnt change that fact. Huge amount of mass death btw? How many animals, beast tribes, imperials,dragons etc have we slaughtered. Drk questline literally has us murder a group of qiqirn and bask in their blood because they messed with a merchant. Diadem literally talks about us and our adventurer friends causing a species to become nigh-on extinct. As for body altering, like someone else mentioned, lets not forget the WoL being complicit in turning Eulmore guards into leafmen, despite them being brainwashed and unable to fight back against Vauthry, and we never even try to help them or fix them after. Thats what i would equate to torture.

[Alleo]

Uh, not all the city states have overcome that. Gridania still has racists and elementals to deal with. Uldah still condones slavery. Just because it's in the past doesnt mean its just swept under the rug. The past defines peoples actions, and you cant just say oh well, since they all of a sudden are doing things for the better, it all makes up for the horrible things theyve done.Uldah literally zombified a city. Thats pretty similar to body altering and "chemical warfare" that Garlemald has done. People seem to have this major double standard for their precious scions or wol or city states that they blind themselves from the truth. The WoL and scions were complicit in the Doma Castle flooding. The WoL and scions were complicit with manipulating tribes to fight their war for them.

And who says that the city states are perfect and angelic? That they dont do anything wrong? But their wrong doings pale in comparsion to Garlemald. Also again please only take recent events into account. Its not fair to count things that happened a long time ago. (Just like it would not be fair to hate on Garlemald 100 years from now if they have changed) The war with the zombification after all happened hundreds of years ago.

The recent city states have problems that is true. Problems that every state on the world will face. Problems that are bad. But lets compare these few problems they still have with the huge amount of horrible stuff Garlemald has done over the last years including doing experiments on their own people. How can we even beginn comparing those? Thats like saying that someone who steals stuff is just as horrible as someone who is a mass murderer.

I dont think that destroying the castle or winning the Xaela over to help with that one battle was really that morally bad. We played by their rules and won. They could have been in danger in the future if Garlemald won. The castle was necessary just like I dont think that its a war crime that a canon took out that one building in Ala Mhigo...the war crime came from Fordola bascially killing her own men. All that stuff is war. And its not great. But there are differences between war and war crimes. (I do agree though that the pixie stuff was horror)

[Theodric]

So you seem to be saying they should be judged on what they may or may not hypothetically do in a situation they haven't had to face?

I'm suggesting that characters should be judged on their individual circumstances and background when it comes to their motives and by that measure, there's going to be many characters who have endured far more bleakness in their lives than the likes of the Warrior of Darkness and Scions, especially in the case of a pair of sixteen year olds.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And who says that the city states are perfect and angelic? That they dont do anything wrong? But their wrong doings pale in comparsion to Garlemald. Also again please only take recent events into account. Its not fair to count things that happened a long time ago. (Just like it would not be fair to hate on Garlemald 100 years from now if they have changed) The war with the zombification after all happened hundreds of years ago.

The recent city states have problems that is true. Problems that every state on the world will face. Problems that are bad. But lets compare these few problems they still have with the huge amount of horrible stuff Garlemald has done over the last years including doing experiments on their own people. How can we even beginn comparing those? Thats like saying that someone who steals stuff is just as horrible as someone who is a mass murderer.

I dont think that destroying the castle or winning the Xaela over to help with that one battle was really that morally bad. We played by their rules and won. They could have been in danger in the future if Garlemald won. The castle was necessary just like I dont think that its a war crime that a canon took out that one building in Ala Mhigo...the war crime came from Fordola bascially killing her own men. All that stuff is war. And its not great. But there are differences between war and war crimes. (I do agree though that the pixie stuff was horror)

This is the thing though. You only take recent events into account without ever looking at why its happening. Besides, kobold slaughtering is recent. Slavery STILL being a thing in uldah is recent. "could" have been in danger as in, we dont know that. What we do know is we literally manipulated a group of people with their own beliefs and customs, while one of the scions also disrespected said customs and semi-mocked them (yshtola). The devs themselves have literally said, this isnt a black and white story. Both sides have their ups and down. I understand if people cant understand that or if it makes the story too complex for them but its just the way it is. Im more inclined to believe what the devs have stated over people who let feelings over pixels get in the way of the truth of things. My overall point though is, it *is* perspective. I've given many examples of things the protagonist side has done that doesnt vary from things the antagonist side has done. Both have their own reasons for doing things and it's quite illogical to just equate one side as good, one side as bad.

[Alleo]

Yes I take only recent events into account (thus the last decades) and not something that happened I think over 400 years ago. That does not mean that you cant remember it or learn from it but unlike the 1000 year war between Nidhogg and Ishgard, nobody from that time is truly alive anymore. And even Nidhogg was painted as being wrong to put the blame on the modern Ishgard. After all if we do that then realistically Garlemald should never be forgiven.

You wont find a state free of sin in this world and I am sure that Sharlayan will also have their fair deal of them. Nobody is arguing that its all black and white. But I am not sure why Eorzea or Doma always gets hit on so much when it pales what they have done to what Garlemald is doing. Any problem you will still find in these city states are problems that are deeply intergrated into Garlemald itself. Slavery? Well look at all these people from the conquered countries that are forced to fight in the wars on the frontline. That are often threated with the death of their loved ones if they dont do that. Racism? Well its always seen as special when someone like for example Gaius does not care about the race of the people. The story of Werthly has told us even more about that. So bascially any problem in the city state is also a part of Garlemald on top of the war mongering and their sole purporse to exist as a calamity bringer.

So even in a grey world there will be places and people that are of a much deeper grey color than others, some of them nearing black.

I'm suggesting that characters should be judged on their individual circumstances and background when it comes to their motives and by that measure, there's going to be many characters who have endured far more bleakness in their lives than the likes of the Warrior of Darkness and Scions, especially in the case of a pair of sixteen year olds.

So if Zenos gets a better backstory where he suddenly has a much more tragic childhood, would he suddenly not count as evil anymore? What about Valens? How can we judge him as evil when we dont even know what he went through? We got a few snippets but nothing much.

Yotsuyu and others like her may have had a bad hand in life (many people around the world do) but it was her choice how to go on with that. It was her choice to choose vengeance again at the end, when she met her parents. She could have had a mostly normal life at the side of Gosetsu. She could have pretended that she was still an amnesiac. But she did not want to.

In turn to her the little girl who lost her parents thanks to Garlemald and Yotsuyu decided that she does not want to live a life of vengeance. She decided to show the person who was responsible for so much fear and pain in her young life kindness. Two people with a bad start in life, two people whose actions in the end decided how it will go on.

[Caurcas]

I'm suggesting that characters should be judged on their individual circumstances and background when it comes to their motives and by that measure, there's going to be many characters who have endured far more bleakness in their lives than the likes of the Warrior of Darkness and Scions, especially in the case of a pair of sixteen year olds.

A mass murderer is a mass murderer. I care not for what ever drove them to become that, all I care about is putting them down. Atleast that's how I view the WoL's morality.

[Theodric]

A mass murderer is a mass murderer. I care not for what ever drove them to become that, all I care about is putting them down. Atleast that's how I view the WoL's morality.

You're free to believe that, though the story isn't written to glorify such a stance and the best way to avoid a repeat of warfare is to acknowledge the circumstances that led to it happening in the first place.

Otherwise another Yotsuyu or Misija arises and the cycle repeats anew.

[KizuyaKatogami]

A mass murderer is a mass murderer. I care not for what ever drove them to become that, all I care about is putting them down. Atleast that's how I view the WoL's morality.

So then you agree that the wol should be put down?