My first point is that to say something is a war crime is fruitless, because who defines a war crime is usually as corrupt as what's being painted up as the crime. Stating that flooding Doma Castle wasn't a war crime, and going into detail about them was to reinforce the fact that it's not one.
Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami
The rest of the post is in reference to war crimes, yes, as a means to point out what are actual war crimes. Perhaps I should have added that just because something isn't a war crime, doesn't mean it's not monstrous or bad.
The almost a century thing comes from how long the Garlean Empire has been around with Magitek committing atrocities and subjugating people. I guess it's closer to half a century, but oh well.
The City States have no direct analogues for atrocities committed by the Garleans, and the few that you compare are past misdeeds which all current leaders find regrettable and either express remorse or pity about.
Also, you have a grave misunderstanding about the differences inherent in chemical warfare versus conventional warfare. Most magic used for combative purposes is purely destructive in nature, and is most aptly compared to mortars, tank shells, missiles, and other highly explosive ordinance. There are only a handful of spells comparable to chemical warfare, ones that erode a person's aether, like Bio or Miasma. The intent of chemical warfare is to kill, and it is often dreadfully painful and cruel in its method. The intent is to stop all or specific bodily functions, and any who do survive suffer long term consequences to their internal organs, usually the respiratory system.
Chemical weapons may be launched by mortar or bombardment over large areas, and can also be mass produced. This is truly what sets it apart from magical spells that do "similar" things, because you can't exactly mass produce Arcanists. Even within the races that are capable of aether manipulation, not everyone can cast spells. Yet, even those similarities do not do chemical weapons justice in their horrors, as we haven't even delved into things like nerve agents.
A nerve agent is a type of chemical that inhibits your neurotransmitters. This causes the body to lose control over all functions, most of which are autonomous. First you lose control of your bladder and bowels, leading you to piss and shit yourself. You start drooling uncontrollably, and your nose starts to run. Then you either asphyxiate and/or have a heart attack. All while being almost completely paralyzed due to muscle seizure. Nerve Agents are generally odorless, colorless, and tasteless. They may enter you through the air or through contact with the skin. Even if you have the countermeasures and antidotes for nerve agents, you are still highly likely to die, and if you don't die, you are still very likely to have permanent brain damage.
As for Doma summoning a primal? No. Never happened. The only primal I'm aware of that was summoned in Doma was Tsukuyomi by Asahi under Elidibus's direction as a frame up to paint Doma as violating the peace talk/prisoner exchange process.
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06-07-2021 04:14 PM #1Player
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"I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore
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06-06-2021 10:43 PM #2Player
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It's really just coming down to another circular disagreement about 'morality' which isn't based on anything present in the game itself but rather the knee-jerk reactions from individuals who have come to loathe specific characters in the story. It happens in a lot of fandoms these days, unfortunately.
Furthermore, it's fascinating to me how often the goalposts are moved. If it had been Yotsuyu who chose to flood Doma Castle and send the likes of Gosetsu and Yugiri to a watery grave then there would be not end to the claims as to how 'unforgivable' the act happened to be. Though because it's 'just' a bunch of Garlean soldiers being drowned and being crushed beneath debris then it's supposedly fine and completely justified.
Luckily the game isn't even presenting such things as anything but unpleasant aspects of war and the escalation that inevitably comes as a result of it.
It also ignores the nuance surrounding key concepts such as how there is a clear distinction between an antagonist and a villain. Or how it is an exceptional disadvantage to be unable to easily manipulate aether in a setting overly reliant on aether for pretty much every aspect of one's life. Or how quickly the 'heroes' insist that people forgive and forget grudges, but the moment they themselves have a desire for vengeance it's suddenly alright to threaten to rip out someone's heart (as per the threat aimed at Ser Zephirin) or various other similar dialogue choices offered up throughout the story.
Really, it seems to me that a lot of people around aren't looking at the lore from the perspective of the characters themselves and instead base their discussion around 'feels' rather than established circumstances and logic.
Hien's one of my favourite characters in the story. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore that some of what he did happened to be questionable - such as strong-arming the Xaela into joining his uprising through the exploiting of their proud traditions or, indeed, the flooding of Doma Castle.
Equally, a lot of what Garlemald has done has been far from perfect - but it's understandable to me that they'd resort to such measures in an effort to avoid being wiped out as they nearly came close to being through no fault of their own in the past.
So too is it the case for Misija and Yotsuyu. They weren't being evil for the sake of being evil. They had both been subjected to immense degradation from their respective societies, failed by everyone around them and both saw Garlemald's way of life as preferable to living in squalor.
Which, to me, is perfectly understandable. Just as it is understandable for Hien to want to reclaim Doma on behalf of his people.
I guess I keep coming here assuming people want to discuss the lore as it is, rather than their pet peeves with individual characters though. Much in the same way as how general Final Fantasy discussion boards have become insufferable due to endless arguments over which is supposedly the 'best' game in the series, even though objectively they all have their perks and flaws.(6)
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06-06-2021 10:59 PM #3Player
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Poorly written and executed characters can make an otherwise decent story bad. See Misijia. Because apart from her and her influence on the story arc, Bozja was fine. Lyons was interesting, Gabranth was interesting, various members of the IVth were interesting. All this was squandered by Misijia's poor writing and arc.
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06-06-2021 11:07 PM #4Player
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Whether a character is 'poorly written' is entirely subjective in itself.
Indeed, given that Matsuno is responsible in large part for creating multiple beloved games rich in detail and nuance such as Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII I'm much more inclined to side with him over some of the posters who flock to this particular board.
A character not being dragged through the coals and punished for supposed misdeeds is not equal to 'bad writing'. Even flawed individuals can do some good at the end of the day. So too has it been the case throughout history in the real world and within the FFXIV setting itself.(5)
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06-06-2021 11:18 PM #5Player
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The ending scene of Castrum begs to differ. As they had to make everyone act in an extremely stupid way in order to get the Misijia plot moving. Really cast a damper on the rest of the story.
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06-06-2021 11:24 PM #6Player
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In what manner was it 'stupid' in your opinion?
Originally Posted by Caurcas
Misijia was taken prisoner to interrogate for information. Her field notes take the format of an interview to explain her opinions, background and thoughts. Invaluable information for the Bozjan Resistance to work with.
What did she do, in your opinion, that is supposedly so 'unforgivable'? I may be wrong, but I'm assuming you mean the part where she turned enemy combatants into thralls? That isn't terribly different to how the Warrior of Darkness allowed soldiers from Eulmore to be turned into leafmen, which the Warrior of Darkness and Scions were fine with.(4)
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06-06-2021 11:32 PM #7Player
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You are thinking the DR capture, I was talking about when she first showed her hand in Litore. However, I will go ahead an answer why she is "unforgivable". The answer is simple, it's the sadistic glee she takes in it.
Originally Posted by Theodric
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06-06-2021 11:38 PM #8Player
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The same sort of sadistic glee that the Scions and Warrior of Darkness have expressed multiple times before going to inflict mass death upon a group of their opponents, often over mere geopolitical disagreements? Furthermore, Misija grew up with an immensely poor lot in life, failed by Bozjan society at every turn. Indeed, before Misija's 'betrayal' we see sadistic glee aimed at her from some of her supposed allies who looked down on her based on her background.
Originally Posted by Caurcas
This doesn't appear to be a case of bad writing to me so much as dislike of the character herself.(6)
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06-06-2021 11:44 PM #9Player
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If Yotsuyu only flooded Doma castle and did nothing else then no I would not have seen her as something not redeemable. It would have been an act of war against an enemy, at least if it was mostly full with soldiers and not mostly full with civilians. But Yotsuyu has done much worse than that. Show me any of the recent Eorzean or Doman leaders that went to villages and forced friends to kill each other. Show me any of the recent Eorzean leaders that raised their undead soldiers so that they are forced to battle on. Show me where any of the current leaders experiment on people, to create bioweapons. Or where they are hiding a world ending bio weapon like Black rose.
Of course some of that was done in the past but thats the thing. The current city states have overcome that. I will not say a bad thing about future Garlemald if it overcomes what it does and I am sure that there are a lot of good people there too. Does not change the fact that right now its the state who is doing the most messed up things...so much that even someone like Gaius is absolutely disgusted by it. But I guess only dead garlean soldiers count? Not all the massive amount of people that Garlemald has killed, including their own...(Nothing about current or recent Garlemald was about being wiped out...Eorzea, Doma and every other nation they conquered outside of their own homeland had nothing to do with their base conflict...)
And I still dont understand why someone like Zenos is not redeemable and evil (or even someone like Asahi) and Yotsuyu is? Would your view change if they introduce some small sob story for him? Because that is all that was part of her. We found out that some people of Doma were horrible to her including her parents. I might have felt less horrified about her actions if those she killed would have been purely those who personally wronged her. I was even happy when her parents and her brother were killed because they were just as awful. But as we know, she used what happened to her in her past and bascially tormented everyone! Its as if someone was bullied by members of a specific race and then decided to just kill of everyone from that race. How is that redeemable? How would it be morally grey if you and your family die in a horrible way because someone that you dont even know was once awful to your killer? I just dont get that. What if her parents also suffered badly in the past? Would that make up for how they threated her?
Honestly what sense would it make to argue it from her point of view? A messed up person like her would always see it as a right thing to do. After all its totally fine to hurt everyone because specific people were horrible to her. I cant and wont take side with someone like that. Its like saying that you should just view something through the eyes of a genocidial mass murderer or dicator. I wont. I can look at it from the outside just fine and see what awful person they are, no matter what had happened to them in the past.
Also where is that point of view and trying to understand a character when its not the villain or antagonist? Where is that understanding when there is another thread discussion on how the scions should die. Why is it fine to say that one wants Graha or Alisaie dead because they are annoying but as soon as someone does not see eye to eye with someone that is either an antagonist or straight up villain, we are just knee-jerk reacting to it...what does a villian have to do before we are allowed to not like what they are doing, before we are allowed to call him evil or a bad guy?
And where are the examples of this sadistic glee that our character or the scions have? When have we experimented on someone? When have we purely tortured someone? Where is the huge amount of mass death? Or do you really mean the war with Garlemald where it was either to be conquered or to try and take back what was once theirs while hoping that Garlemald does not decide to drop another calamity on them.
Originally Posted by Theodric
I too always grin at the pure sadistic glee of Alphinaud trying to heal garlean soldiers after they tried to kill us. Or the pure glee of Alisaie trying to even save those tempered Garleans. I also cant wait for the sadistic glee that the scions and WOL will show when they free Garlemald of Zenos and Fandaniel and will help rebuilt it.(6)Last edited by Alleo; 06-06-2021 at 11:53 PM.
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06-07-2021 12:30 AM #10Player
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Uh, not all the city states have overcome that. Gridania still has racists and elementals to deal with. Uldah still condones slavery. Just because it's in the past doesnt mean its just swept under the rug. The past defines peoples actions, and you cant just say oh well, since they all of a sudden are doing things for the better, it all makes up for the horrible things theyve done.Uldah literally zombified a city. Thats pretty similar to body altering and "chemical warfare" that Garlemald has done. People seem to have this major double standard for their precious scions or wol or city states that they blind themselves from the truth. The WoL and scions were complicit in the Doma Castle flooding. The WoL and scions were complicit with manipulating tribes to fight their war for them. These are both considered bad things. It was for war yes. But it doesnt change that fact. Huge amount of mass death btw? How many animals, beast tribes, imperials,dragons etc have we slaughtered. Drk questline literally has us murder a group of qiqirn and bask in their blood because they messed with a merchant. Diadem literally talks about us and our adventurer friends causing a species to become nigh-on extinct. As for body altering, like someone else mentioned, lets not forget the WoL being complicit in turning Eulmore guards into leafmen, despite them being brainwashed and unable to fight back against Vauthry, and we never even try to help them or fix them after. Thats what i would equate to torture.
Originally Posted by Alleo
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