Dark Knight where is my Identiy

[Aluja89]

Hypothetically, what would everyone think of a melee caster for DRK? I keep reading that DRK should be fast and I can't logically understand why it needs to be fast, it's a heavily armored big sword wielding class.

Combo would be something like Hit>Big Swing Cast>Dark Magic Cast, AOE Hit>Dark Magic Cast. Delirium could then remove cast timers and give it a attack speed buff(since everyone wants it), something akin to Berserk's Guts.

[Shurrikhan]

Hypothetically, what would everyone think of a melee caster for DRK? I keep reading that DRK should be fast and I can't logically understand why it needs to be fast, it's a heavily armored big sword wielding class.

Combo would be something like Hit>Big Swing Cast>Dark Magic Cast, AOE Hit>Dark Magic Cast. Delirium could then remove cast timers and give it a attack speed buff(since everyone wants it), something akin to Berserk's Guts.

My gut feeling is that cast times are pretty antithetical to a tank both in that they prevent dodges, parries, blocks, and oGCD usage (presently essential in active mitigation) over their duration and greatly fetter one's ability to position oneself and therefore enemies attacking you.

I could also levy about a few thousand word's worth of fairly conclusive reasoning to the same effect based on historical norms and player surveys regarding tanking from across a few different MMOs, but I suspect you'll find that without significant gamewide changes, at least a slight majority of players would have a similar instinct.

It's also worth noting that Guts does not have cast times. By all means, give us some real sword weight and some VFX-based excuse for if/when that weight is suddenly absent (Scourge, Bloodspiller, etc.), but cast times are not necessary for imparting a unique aesthetic or pace to DRK.

[Aluja89]

My gut feeling is that cast times are pretty antithetical to a tank both in that they prevent dodges, parries, blocks, and oGCD caps (presently essential in active mitigation) over their duration and greatly fetter one's ability to position oneself and therefore enemies attacking you.

I could also levy about a few thousand word's worth of fairly conclusive reasoning to the same effect based on historical norms and player surveys regarding tanking from across a few different MMOs, but I suspect you'll find that without significant gamewide changes, at least a slight majority of players would have a similar instinct.

It's also worth noting that Guts does not have cast times. By all means, give us some real sword weight and some VFX-based excuse for if/when that weight is suddenly absent (Scourge, Bloodspiller, etc.), but cast times are not necessary for imparting a unique aesthetic or pace to DRK.

I think you misunderstood the Guts reference, Delirium being the same thing as Guts' full Berserk Armor and I know Guts doesn't cast magic. I'm just combining elements since it's obviously based on Berserk(it'd also be a good time to be a bit more obvious with the reference).

This was just my attempt at giving it a flavor so it feels distinct from the others but I'm not understanding how it'd be antithetical? The things you mentioned barely matter and they'd still work but if you're talking about practicality then I can point a finger to GNB. Tiny sword without a guard, I'm just telling myself its using a aether shell to coat itself with a protective shield.

I also never have a issue dodging mechanics when I'm playing a caster so I don't see why it'd be an issue, either way it'd be adjusted cast timers not as long as actual casters.

I'm just starving for some tank identity.

[Shurrikhan]

The things you mentioned barely matter and they'd still work but if you're talking about practicality then I can point a finger to GNB.

Unfettered freedom to move and use oGCDs "barely matter"? To a tank?

GNB has no casts. It has only abilities and weaponskills.

Paladin has spells but no cast times, as of ShB.

So where would that finger point in this regard?

I also never have a issue dodging mechanics when I'm playing a caster so I don't see why it'd be an issue

I'm referring to literal dodge chance, hence it's pairing alongside block and parry, neither of which are actively performable on DRK (heck, the latter isn't actively performable at all, as of Raw Intuition's change).

____________________

Perhaps this is a difference in nomenclature. When I hear "caster" I think a job with at least a significant presence of and concerns surrounding cast-times, just as in your later use of the term. So when I hear that you want to turn DRK into a "melee caster" with "cast timers" that is what I think of, and it does not then sound fit to me to be a tank, at least in the present context of the game (whereby, unlike in WoW or the like, there are no mobile casts and one cannot use any other skills simultaneously with casting, and casting forfeits all RNG-based mitigation).

[Aluja89]

Unfettered freedom to move and use oGCDs "barely matter"? To a tank?

I was talking in a general trial/raid situation, I dunno about you but I barely move since the boss just positions itself anyway but even if you can position the boss it keeps getting stuck between attacking and moving.

Why wouldn't it be able to use oGCDs?

GNB has no casts. It has only abilities and weaponskills.

Paladin has spells but no cast times, as of ShB.

So where would that finger point in this regard?

How did you even jump to this conclusion? I thought you were talking about the fantasy of the tank role, I even gave my little headcanon as an example. But really, why would mitigation effects seize to function? I still get blocks when I'm casting Clemency, so what were you getting at because I'm confused.

I'm referring to literal dodge chance, hence it's pairing alongside block and parry, neither of which are actively performable on DRK (heck, the latter isn't actively performable at all, as of Raw Intuition's change).

So why are you bringing it up?

Perhaps this is a difference in nomenclature. When I hear "caster" I think a job with at least a significant presence of and concerns surrounding cast-times, just as in your later use of the term. So when I hear that you want to turn DRK into a "melee caster" with "cast timers" that is what I think of, and it does not then sound fit to me to be a tank, at least in the present context of the game (whereby, unlike in WoW or the like, there are no mobile casts and one cannot use any other skills simultaneously with casting, and casting forfeits all RNG-based mitigation).

I'm not married to this idea, I was just spitballing and hoping to get some people to think along but like usual negativity wins and we're talking in circles like old contrarians.

[Vatom]

Woah ok thanks for the feedback
My goals for this is to get all of us on one page on what we want and to keep it practical

As for the comment on drk being based off of guts sorry it wasn’t I wish it was cause then I would go berserk but drk came from ff4 ff9 and ff11 with a bit of ff7 flavor now all of those are dated and they could have went with cloud concept but he’s more of a soldier or knight then anything so I see why they didn’t go all the way with that

As for a caster tank you have one and a dam good on pld why would we make drk another one like I said moving backwards we need more forward thinking

As for fast and magic tank that was a more broad term I read everyone’s post and that’s what I understood from all of them I did this so we can have a focal point in this mess like kids think sports are a play ground but hey see if they listen to a tantrum or a conversation... guess male viera is a thing so who knows

I will respond to more next post we have our limits here

[Vatom]

Now I shall try this again cause we need a direction so we don’t miss

The question we need answered are.
1. What is a drk?
2. How are they unique or how can we make them unique?
3. What do we want to fix so they can feel like the class they should be?

These are some of the ingredients to make the perfect drk. From what I got so far from you all.

Now I shall spit ball a few idea in my head cannon in hope we can trim the fat of this convo.

I’m gonna go with this one cause I thought hard on it for years and have multiple concepts

Living Dead
1. The small fix
Slap a healing buff on it and call it a day
Bandage fix but it’s something and LD isn’t bad but it isn’t good this is the problem we have with it. Yes we have a long invun time but what does it matter if I die when it’s over. Prolonged death isnt a good death

2. Get rid of invuns
It’s an option that I’m sure SE might take into consideration but doesn’t mean we would agree on it

3. Have during LD all damage is converted in to healing and all healing dmg
One of my favorite but might not be the best option for drk it might turn out like SuperB all over again

4. When waking dead expires instead of death sap all you mp and convert it into hp 100% = a maximum of 100k (just a estimate not gospel)
Last one that I think is perfect drk is all about sacrifice and this I think is bigger then death and unique to the class like Frey taking the bow for you and now you have to fight to replenish mp

This is a response to the ones stating about LD since we can only post but so much it was one of my idea I have more another with TBN etc but we need to decide each skill that we keep and the ones we don’t but in a practical was that doesn’t kill the devs

[OdinelStarrei]

Woah ok thanks for the feedback
My goals for this is to get all of us on one page on what we want and to keep it practical

As for the comment on drk being based off of guts sorry it wasn’t I wish it was cause then I would go berserk but drk came from ff4 ff9 and ff11 with a bit of ff7 flavor now all of those are dated and they could have went with cloud concept but he’s more of a soldier or knight then anything so I see why they didn’t go all the way with that

As for a caster tank you have one and a dam good on pld why would we make drk another one like I said moving backwards we need more forward thinking

As for fast and magic tank that was a more broad term I read everyone’s post and that’s what I understood from all of them I did this so we can have a focal point in this mess like kids think sports are a play ground but hey see if they listen to a tantrum or a conversation... guess male viera is a thing so who knows

I will respond to more next post we have our limits here

DRK is 100% a Berserk inspired thing. It's the only reason I'm playing it now.

https://www.pcgamer.com/final-fantas...-unfathomable/

If you want to bypass post limits, edit your posts, add the rest in.

Think everyone's just gonna be spinning their wheels until more tangible things come to light. Best to keep expectations at their absolute lowest to avoid too much disappointment. That's not a slap to the devs, it's just more realistic than changes to the framework.

[Shurrikhan]

But really, why would mitigation effects seize to function?

oGCD usage (and therefore oGCD mitigation) and RNG mitigation, I said. And because they do and always have been prevented for the duration of one's casts. Unless that is specifically changed, it will continue to be the case.

I still get blocks when I'm casting Clemency, so what were you getting at because I'm confused.

Not while it had a cast time on it, you didn't. In HW and StB, when outside a combo you could specifically use Clemency to ensure auto-attacks would not consume Shelltron, since you'd be unable to block during the cast-time. Since Shelltron's effect was itself oddly delayed, dropping the can't-block state (by ending Clemency once the tankbuster cast was finishing) was generally more responsive and therefore precisely timeable.

So why are you bringing it up?

Because you equated dodge chance to sidestepping. It is not. It is a chance.

I'm not married to this idea, I was just spitballing and hoping to get some people to think along but like usual negativity wins and we're talking in circles like old contrarians.

Just keep in mind that certain ideas will resonate with certain others about as well as insisting that DRKs should be race-locked to a bloated sub-race of blue-skinned lalafells. Cast times as central to a DRK was just one such offensive idea for me. I am not arguing with you out of some love for arguing, itself. I am arguing with your idea because I absolutely hate it. It would ruin, for me, almost everything about one of my favorite jobs.

Don't take that as something personal, in the sense of being against you in particular. It is merely something idiosyncratic, in that I would absolutely despise a tank centered around cast times, especially in the present contexts of XIV.

[Vatom]

DRK is 100% a Berserk inspired thing. It's the only reason I'm playing it now.

https://www.pcgamer.com/final-fantas...-unfathomable/

If you want to bypass post limits, edit your posts, add the rest in.

Think everyone's just gonna be spinning their wheels until more tangible things come to light. Best to keep expectations at their absolute lowest to avoid too much disappointment. That's not a slap to the devs, it's just more realistic than changes to the framework.

First comment I have to say is you do know the difference between inspire and base right? I gave this a few days to see anyone else had something to say but nothing came so just adding that.

Next thank you good sir I will take this tip into consideration

Finally my goal is simply to get everyone on the same page and have a solid realistic idea of what we want so when EW comes out we can be ready to present it if not happy with drk at the state never said we gotta fix drk now cause their not.

Note: I understand we all are grieving over the lose but I was just saying the truth as a berserk fan I know the difference between drk and guts. Now I get that’s why you play drk but my reason I play drk is totally different and that’s understandable love what you love but that doesn’t change game design

Now! Drk identity what we got anyone got ideas?