Dark Knight where is my Identiy

[Kalaam]

I'm not sure what your argument is here.
That SE makes all job easy so none is left underplayed ?

[RinaB]

I'm not sure what your argument is here.
That SE makes all job easy so none is left underplayed ?

No, my point is they don't want to have niche classes. The problem with this is it promotes homogenization. Homogenization is easier to balance and tune but it leaves players feeling underwhelmed. The tanks do play and feel different but not by much and I wouldn't expect this to change.

[shao32]

I feel bad because I understand your points but the problem SE has is they don't want severely underrepresented jobs. People are like water, they will always go the easiest path with most reward. Let's say drk becomes what you want in 6.0 but warrior stays relatively the same with huge damage, you end up in SB again where everyone is a warrior and only a small handful are even capable of playing drk optimally. I agree the class needs adjustments to make it non warrior and maybe that's coming. Every tank should feel very different and right now they all feel pretty different but there is a level of homogenization that I do not like either.

That's a problem of balance not job design, SB situation where DRK wasn't played much it was bcs the job was fairly behind on dps, mitigation and utility having practically none, DRK would have been more desirable if the job had the dps it should have for being such selfish tank and the mitigation buffs requested but we all know SE just didn't care about DRK for most than half of the expansion and when they buff it it was still inferior to the other 2 in everything except mitigation.

Many stuff affect the pick rate but that shouldn't be something that determinate a rework like that specially when the job problems was mostly numbers that anything else back then.
In HW the job pick rate was good, WAR just dominate bcs was absurdly OP and mandatory and WAR complexity was fairly nice back then.

[Kalaam]

I wouldn't expect this to change.

The point of the thread is about voicing opinions and what changes the DRK players want.
Not about the low expectation we might have about the devs listening to us, if so, might as well not use the feedback sections of the forum at all.

[Vatom]

Ok So what I’m getting at with all this is
1. Drk need to be fast
2. Drk is a magic tank
3. Better animation and utility
4. Better synergy
(Reply if I missed something)

I really have been thinking this over and I do agree with one post saying we are crying about things that aren’t the bigger picture I still think this is a big problem and I since day 1 stated drk needed love hell since sb but in that I had different problems SB was more of can I get some more single target dmg nothing crazy but and I quote I specifically remember people asking for a fix to the mana bloat in SB and how war had IR and now all I can say is look at what you did. We got this. your welcome.
Now for the people that say they want dark arts button back.. I’m sorry I don’t see that happening and I don’t see the point doesn’t work with what we got now and doesn’t feel like it would fit. I kno I kno in your head cannon it would but I personally don’t see it working and the effort to put it back in and “Work!” so I hate to say no let’s move forward.

As for the new flood and edge idk why people hate it I think this is solid we need more of that just note I hate floods animation but I know it’s referenced from 4 drk I still think that it’s dated and I rather a downward slash like the old passenger but no bubbles I hate those dumb bubbles makes me not want to use quietus.
But edge is solid animation needs some dmg and reduce the no cost but good none the lease and any complaints about double weave is like why does that matter to SE cause it kinda doesn’t

Living shadow
I wouldn’t mind it being replace by bushin at least it feel like I’m faster instead of having my friend over for play time.
As for AD I do wish we could just get charges I agree with that 100% or some way to supplement me with single target cause SOuleater not cutting it
BW with charges though it would helps isn’t going to solve the problem of it’s almost worthless mp gain I do wish for it to add magic dmg to you attacks give me that spell blade feel like rdm but hey I like dmg and utility

The fact they took power slash for souleater annoys me but I know why easier to manage that all not looks or preferences just manage it already had the function to heal why make another do that or shield when making the world grey but power slash comeback plz and remove that hard slash my back hurts watching it
As for the boycott before we do that let’s know what we want and what they are going to give us in the media tour before we do that. Mean I’m all for it but if we don’t know what we want and complain about the wrong thing SE will listen and boom ShB drk all over again also see what they are going to do if you still got the energy
Sadly I don’t see SE doing anything

[DRKoftheAzure]

Ok So what I’m getting at with all this is
1. Drk need to be fast
2. Drk is a magic tank
3. Better animation and utility
4. Better synergy
(Reply if I missed something)

I really have been thinking this over and I do agree with one post saying we are crying about things that aren’t the bigger picture I still think this is a big problem and I since day 1 stated drk needed love hell since sb but in that I had different problems SB was more of can I get some more single target dmg nothing crazy but and I quote I specifically remember people asking for a fix to the mana bloat in SB and how war had IR and now all I can say is look at what you did. We got this. your welcome.
Now for the people that say they want dark arts button back.. I’m sorry I don’t see that happening and I don’t see the point doesn’t work with what we got now and doesn’t feel like it would fit. I kno I kno in your head cannon it would but I personally don’t see it working and the effort to put it back in and “Work!” so I hate to say no let’s move forward.

As for the new flood and edge idk why people hate it I think this is solid we need more of that just note I hate floods animation but I know it’s referenced from 4 drk I still think that it’s dated and I rather a downward slash like the old passenger but no bubbles I hate those dumb bubbles makes me not want to use quietus.
But edge is solid animation needs some dmg and reduce the no cost but good none the lease and any complaints about double weave is like why does that matter to SE cause it kinda doesn’t

Living shadow
I wouldn’t mind it being replace by bushin at least it feel like I’m faster instead of having my friend over for play time.
As for AD I do wish we could just get charges I agree with that 100% or some way to supplement me with single target cause SOuleater not cutting it
BW with charges though it would helps isn’t going to solve the problem of it’s almost worthless mp gain I do wish for it to add magic dmg to you attacks give me that spell blade feel like rdm but hey I like dmg and utility

The fact they took power slash for souleater annoys me but I know why easier to manage that all not looks or preferences just manage it already had the function to heal why make another do that or shield when making the world grey but power slash comeback plz and remove that hard slash my back hurts watching it
As for the boycott before we do that let’s know what we want and what they are going to give us in the media tour before we do that. Mean I’m all for it but if we don’t know what we want and complain about the wrong thing SE will listen and boom ShB drk all over again also see what they are going to do if you still got the energy
Sadly I don’t see SE doing anything

Regarding point 2; the devs idea of Magic tank hasn't aged all that well as seen in Stormblood so a more modern variation of the magic tank is needed, which would require at least adding HP shields to ALL of DRKs defensive cooldowns and Re-work Grit into Lifesteal on all attacks regardless if it's auto-attacks, weaponskills, spells, or abilities, if it does damage then the amount of damage dealt is then converted as HP restoration A.K.A. Bloodbath but better(which happily coincides with points 3 and 4).

Better animation requires at least cutting the amount of wind-up on Bloodspiller has. As well as making certain abilities GCD like Edge and Flood of Darkness/Shadow(glorified GCDs in the form of oGCDs never sat right with me) and Carve and Spit. If the animation is too long for an oGCD and GCD comes up before the animation finishes, put it on the GCD. And maybe put Abyssal Drain and Salted Earth on the GCD and upgrade Unmend into the now forgotten PVP AoE skill Carnal Chill have those be an ranged AoE combo that's mostly used for pulls but still has other uses and could potentially be the first AoE enmity combo.

I have never been a big fan of Living Shadow and I would gladly trade it for a better and more modern Darkside and Dark Arts system(Dark Arts would need to require Darkside active in the first place in order for people to actually somewhat care about keeping Darkside active). I have been trying to figure out to how improve and modernize this would-be Darkside and Dark Arts system, but it mostly involves altering Plunge from single target into a cone AoE, and maybe have it boost specifically Plunge, Quietus, Flood and Edge of Darkness/Shadow, Bloodspiller(as well as reduce resource costs based on high level you are), and Carve and Spit(while also reducing it's recast timer) but then I realized that Edge/Flood recast timer is the perfect GCD re-cast timer for 2 burst combos back-to-back(single target and AoE) and all that is needed is unique Dark Arts effect on Carve and Spit that has a combo bonus if used after Bloodspiller that(outside of increased MP gain and potency) it's unique re-cast timer would not be triggered.

And I prefer Dark Arts and Darkside as 2 seperate buttons so call me "old-fashioned" but Darkside needing a slower MP drain effect or slower MP natural refresh rate to keep DPS balancing a thing on DRK seems plausible but then having Darkside and Living Shadow being 2 separate toggles for 2 separate playstyles might be better so long as you keep DPS between the 2 the same(which means more work for the devs but this is one of MANY issues with MMOs since MMOs tend to require constant attention from both the devs and players and making sure everything is working as intended or balance future content around the stuff that the players found but the devs didn't during play testing since they are more concerned about whether or not things working as intended the first go around) but Dark Arts would require at least one of those to work and Dark Arts stack would need to go up from 1 to based on if Living Shadow is active or Darkside is active.

And yes I would like Spinning slash and Power Slash combos back(would need to modernize them but please NOT as skills that eventually become Syphon Strike and Souleater those skills are too different in animations much like Fell Cleave/Decimate and Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone) and yes I would like old-weaponskill Delirium back as well and others want Scourge back so my compromise is make the 2 weaponskills part of a combo that cause various debuffs like DoT and damage penalties to the enemies.

[Recon1o6]

Ok So what I’m getting at with all this is
1. Drk need to be fast
2. Drk is a magic tank
3. Better animation and utility
4. Better synergy

Close

1. Dark (and all other tanks and jobs) must play, look and feel unique
2. Dark needs more combo actions
3. Dark should get a niche thats appropriate. IE Uptime heavy, buffing tank
4. Dark wants its animations back
5. Dark requires living dead to be an actual invulnerability not a delay suicide button

[Shurrikhan]

Ok So what I’m getting at with all this is
1. Drk need to be fast
2. Drk is a magic tank
3. Better animation and utility
4. Better synergy
(Reply if I missed something)

1. This is fine, so long as by "fast" you aren't referring to APM generally, as you'd find yourself then sorely competing for that identity with Gunbreaker. See Recon's revision above.
   
   
2. "Magic tank" is no more than a nice euphemism for "Is barred from (at least) half of all fights just to take the flak for forcing other tanks out of the remaining (at most) half of fights." Please no.
   
   
3. Sure, but in what way? We can't even seemingly decide if Bloodspiller's animation is the best thing since sliced bread or the worst job topping since marmite.
   
   
4. "Synergy", meanwhile, is merely a nice way to term "co-dependence" in the context of optimal play. I'd argue that co-dependence between skills is, when designed well, still a good thing, but don't expect others not to complain about the synergizing skills feeling individually lackluster or the playflow therefore dependent on "ramp-up", "bloat", or whatever term by which one might view prerequisite actions being necessary to get to the core or intent of a skill's effect.

[PangTong]

DRK is currently my least favourite of the four tanks but it's only partially because of the gameplay. The main reason I don't like it is the animations. When DRK came out it had all these sick looking attacks like Power Slash and Scourge, but gradually those attacks have been removed and we're left with only the stupid looking ones like Souleater and Bloodspiller which make it look like DRKs exist in low gravity. I just want decent looking moves again, especially for stuff the job uses all the time like its main combos and gauge spender.

Besides that though DRK is in a boring spot gameplay wise. Just having a single 1-2-3 combo that you do over and over is so lame and dull it's painful, regardless of how much ogcd stuff you've got going on. Bloodspiller isn't enough to break it up and doesn't feel good to use anyway because it looks so dumb. The remainder of the job can basically just be described as use everything on cooldown and save enough MP to TBN when there's incoming damage.

As far as identity goes, it could stand to have more of one but I'd be fine with just making it more fun first. In other games DRK is the job of self-sacrifice. Originally this was represented with the MP drain and Dark Arts but that has kind of been lost with the expansions. I would like to maybe see some kind of system where you try to balance the desire to maintain a buff with the desire to use attacks which spend/drain that buff. As an example DRK currently has the darkside timer, but you'll never lose Darkside ever since you get so much MP and EoS/FoS restores the timer by so much. What if DRK had an attack which drained the timer and did a load of damage (a second combo finisher, perhaps)? You want to use the attack as much as possible, but you also don't want to lose Darkside. I think this would bring back some of the flavour DRK had in Heavensward where you wanted to use MP on Dark Arts but wanted to avoid running out. You could also have oGCD buffs/attacks that affect the timer in various ways.

[shao32]

snip

DRK need to be fast? well it always has been a fast/busy job to being with until SHB so yeah i consider it should still need to be like that, but high APM is not just the solution, they have to spread the oGCD usage across the GCD rotation otherwise is what we have now, a super concentrated oGCD window and around 50s of slow painfully boring GCD gameplay.
DRK as a magic tank more like a MP tank on my book with having to manage his MP way more than any other job in the game like it was in the past.
Better animation and utility of course yes, i really miss the heavy swings of scourge, power slash and old delirium, it use to have that sense despite of weaving a heavy piece of metal he conected his magical skills like dark arts and dark passenger to make it feel heavy and fast at the same time and it was glorious, carve and spit is one of my favourite animations and im ok that one being fast but souleater combo and bloodspiller clunky spin is very meh.
Better sinergy with his own mechanics, DRK is a empty job, just a random amount of skills with is mostly determinated his usage bcs recast and raid buffs, there is no planing, there is to much that is going on automatic mode and nothing to look forward to it.

My biggest problem with Edge and Flood is they are just a pair of spameable generic oGCD, they are not diferent of shinten for example and it's due the mechanic atached to this skills is running on automatic mode, you don't care at all about Darkside and his gauge at all and that makes boths skills feels like meh. If only Flood granted Darkside time and Edge was used when you have enough darkside time bcs moar dps and then use Flood again only to keep the buff up that would make both skills indifinitely better and more rewarding to use.
Lets imagine this, only Flood grant Darkside time and in single target when you don't need Darkside time you use Edge for more dps, and in AoE situations you use Abyssal drain as a counterpart (it would have the same MP cost of Edge and Flood) the whole system would mean something and could be way more apreciated, Darkside would have a meaning and would be rewairding if you manage it well, thats my opinion, i just hate how much you don't care about the whole mechanic at all right now.

And for living shadow the skill need to interact more with the kit, the representation on the gauge is useless and you can't deactivate the skill when you use it to save resources like automated queen, it have to grant a buff ot upgrade skills or grant more resources under his duration, aything that make it more than just a simple dot that you don't care about it and would aprecitaed if is not on every 2 mins marks unless it grant a big burst since it alling with the most important raid buffs that are on the same 2 mins mark so the job can have a meaningfull coreplay based on his original MP/busy management betwen those 2 mins that is not based on taking naps or watching netflix most of the time.