Parsers add replayability for casual players

[SturmChurro]

It's exactly that. And it happens with both WoW and FFXIV and really any large enough community where you can play with different people every day.

One example: In WoW, a Mage in a dungeon I was in was kicked for not using Time Warp in the first boss of a normal BfA dungeon. That experience did not make me want to use Time Warp on the first boss of a dungeon whenever I played a Mage myself and I was never kicked or harassed. And yet that Mage certainly had a different experience than me.

That's why when people have a problem with the FFXIV community for whatever reason, it has to be taken into context of that player's own experience. On the internet, you can find people agreeing with whatever problem you have and people disagreeing, both based on their own experiences.

It makes sense if players are being criticized for playing the wrong way though. There's a specific way and way not to play these games.

[linayar]

It makes sense if players are being criticized for playing the wrong way though. There's a specific way and way not to play these games.

The game has to enforce that, though. Otherwise, the community can unite or be split on how to do it.

[SturmChurro]

The game has to enforce that, though. Otherwise, the community can unite or be split on how to do it.

I couldn't finish my thoughts due to being in Dalraida.

To add: This game already allows players to kick others due to "difference in playstyles", and players do it all the time here. Anyway, I think a big thing here is though.. players aren't actually being "harassed", at least not at the level some might say. Many take any sort of criticism - constructive specifically - or even suggestions as personal attacks, and I have stated as much many times before. There is a difference between actual harassment, and constructive criticism. One player asking another to use more than cure 1, or to actually use AoE shouldn't even be an issue here. It should be common sense, but such a community has been harbored here. Any form of self improvement - even the mere suggestion of a personal parser - is seen as such by many, in my opinion.

[linayar]

This game already allows players to kick others due to "difference in playstyles"

Actually, are you sure about that?

Anyway, I think a big thing here is though.. players aren't actually being "harassed", at least not at the level some might say.

That goes both ways and what I was talking about regarding complaints about "griefers." Not everyone is intentionally playing a certain way to grief someone else.

Many take any sort of criticism - constructive specifically - or even suggestions as personal attacks, and I have stated as much many times before. There is a difference between actual harassment, and constructive criticism. One player asking another to use more than cure 1, or to actually use AoE shouldn't even be an issue here.

See, if you truly believe that, then you should stop saying that people should be silent in random group content. If you're giving constructive criticism and actually saying it in a neutral and constructive manner, then you shouldn't fear people reporting you for it, if they even do.

It should be common sense, but such a community has been harbored here. Any form of self improvement - even the mere suggestion of a personal parser - is seen as such by many, in my opinion.

I think that goes back to individual experiences as I've seen plenty of people giving advice, and I doubt most of them, if any, were reported.

[SturmChurro]

Actually, are you sure about that?



That goes both ways and what I was talking about regarding complaints about "griefers." Not everyone is intentionally playing a certain way to grief someone else.

See, if you truly believe that, then you should stop saying that people should be silent in random group content. If you're giving constructive criticism and actually saying it in a neutral and constructive manner, then you shouldn't fear people reporting you for it, if they even do.

I think that goes back to individual experiences as I've seen plenty of people giving advice, and I doubt most of them, if any, were reported.

That has bothered me in terms of curation - but it is true according to people here. I tend to believe them. If it wasn't, I'd think it would actually be a punishable act - and that, frankly, doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't want to be silent in group content. I suggest users stay silent 'IN GAME', so they don't risk their account over some player they probably won't see ever again. Intentionally griefing or not. A warning even is a permanent mark on your account. It's just not worth it, and in not being able to speak up (EVER) due to everything being taken as a personal attack, it enables more of this sort of play.

Yeah, I'm not going to risk that, and I will never suggest anybody else risk their account over it. All it takes is one time for a GM to act on ANYTHING said, and that's a STRIKE on your account. Again, not worth it. It's better to keep chatter third party, and never risk having to deal with someone who thinks the whole world is out to get them, and you just popped on their radar after having the gall to suggest they use aoe or whatever.

[linayar]

That has bothered me in terms of curation - but it is true according to people here. I tend to believe them. If it wasn't, I'd think it would actually be a punishable act - and that, frankly, doesn't seem to be the case.

I think that's a matter of people not bothering to report potential misuse.

Either way, that goes back to what I say about how the community behaves when there is no enforcement in the game.

I don't want to be silent in group content. I suggest users stay silent 'IN GAME', so they don't risk their account over some player they probably won't see ever again. Intentionally griefing or not. A warning even is a permanent mark on your account. It's just not worth it, and in not being able to speak up (EVER) due to everything being taken as a personal attack, it enables more of this sort of play.

Yeah, I'm not going to risk that, and I will never suggest anybody else risk their account over it. All it takes is one time for a GM to act on ANYTHING said, and that's a STRIKE on your account. Again, not worth it. It's better to keep chatter third party, and never risk having to deal with someone who thinks the whole world is out to get them, and you just popped on their radar after having the gall to suggest they use aoe or whatever.

Fair enough, though I think, joking aside (because people have different sense of humor), you're still overblowing the potential risk. If everyone took your advice, this game would be dead as the community cannot live outside the game.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't want to be silent in group content. I suggest users stay silent 'IN GAME', so they don't risk their account over some player they probably won't see ever again. Intentionally griefing or not. A warning even is a permanent mark on your account. It's just not worth it, and in not being able to speak up (EVER) due to everything being taken as a personal attack, it enables more of this sort of play.

Yeah, I'm not going to risk that, and I will never suggest anybody else risk their account over it. All it takes is one time for a GM to act on ANYTHING said, and that's a STRIKE on your account. Again, not worth it. It's better to keep chatter third party, and never risk having to deal with someone who thinks the whole world is out to get them, and you just popped on their radar after having the gall to suggest they use aoe or whatever.

While I'd never try to push people towards danger of a strike against their accounts just to try to make the game a generally more friendly place (though I'd hope they'd consider that a benefit worth their consideration), I'm kind of the opposite in that I can't wholly forgo giving advice when it seems lucrative and the friendly, pleasant, sociable thing to do.

It feels bad enough that tactful, cheerful, or otherwise polite and well-intentioned advice is much more often met with hostility here than in the other MMOs I play, but to let that sort of letter-of-the-law (over its spirit) or conflations regarding player engagement to blanket any and all attempts to help others with something you've found engaging (and the excitement of which you have, many times past, successfully conveyed to others to their benefit)... that just seems too ominous, too pacifying, to continue playing. So, for me, it's either 'take the risk and shrug off the occasional disproportionate backlash' or just hop back to WoW where, oddly enough, my average experience in group content has been at least a bit more friendly and the occasional friendship formed from random matchmaking.



:: To be clear, my advice is still met with hostility at most a third of the time; it's not as if the whole game has gone sour. It's more a matter of comparison, as the same quality of advice (or even that which is less tactful), tends to be more readily absorbed in other MMOs I play; in WoW, for instance, other players seem more willing to give me advice (though perhaps that has much to do with how much Details, WoW's most frequently used parser addon, facilitates that process), and less than a tenth the time am I likely to encounter any hostility when giving advice or making a reasonable request (even as each of those tend to be more complex, as WoW's 'light party'-equivalent content simply tends to have a fair bit more going on).

[ForteNightshade]

And what would change in the experience? You'd still kick someone, right? You'd still not be able to say anything to them.

What does it matter if they can see? The key element there is that they have to give a damn about what they see. So what is really going to change?

Not necessarily. It also allows the group to actually discuss a DPS issue in say Savage PF. What you'll often seen nowadays is people leaving after a couple pulls because they know they can't comment on someone having low DPS.

It would also be a massive help to jobs like Astro whose entire gimmick is reliant on how other people perform. In fact, one could argue the dislike towards Astro's new card system is because people can't actually see the impact their cards have. You could directly feel a 10% defensive buff on a tank; see your MP ticking up, and etc. You can't really see if that extra 5% is better on the Samurai, Dragoon or Red Mage.

Actually, are you sure about that?

Yes.

[Shurrikhan]

(Above)

I can offer a counter-example to this, by way of personal anecdote.

Back in ARR (WP HM, iirc), I was running an Expert Roulette with a group of 3 German-queued players. There was a brief moment of confusion when I said hello and such in German only to get mute response, followed by "we only speak English", but the run went in quick and friendly fashion. That is, until just before the final boss, at which point they said something along the lines of "Sorry, but our friend needs his daily bonus." Dense as I am, I first thought they meant they had to leave just short of completion, which kinda sucked as it'd take a while to find both a tank and healer. Then, remembering that they were all queued as German only despite being English-only speakers and on a NA server, I thought one who'd already gotten their bonus was dropping to make room for a buddy who'd swap queues to German and in-progress join them. 5 seconds or so later, I knew better once they kicked me.

Given that it was a 20-or-so-minute queue to get in as DPS, I was pretty ticked and actually reported them, providing all that context in fair detail. I was assured that they would look over the party chat and, while I was told what would ultimately happen to that party was confidential (only that they took provable abuse of the kick feature seriously), I never received any word that this option, on their part, was secured by the categorical "different playstyles" clause.

So, more simply put: There appear to be real limits to that otherwise all-powerful leniency in kick categories.

But, yes, for the purposes by which any kick is likely to occur in a typical DF run... the kicker is pretty much immune to redress.

[linayar]

Yes.

How old is that message and would it hold for all GMs considering even that GM admitted to the limited/wrong text being used in the interface?

Regardless, it's an interesting wording there:

"...not constitute a breach of our rules, since they did not act with the sole purpose of disrupting your gameplay."

If being prevented from playing and clearing a duty because you were kicked is not a problem because it does not necessarily mean the ones who kicked you acted with the sole purpose of disrupting your gameplay, that reasoning could potentially be applied to other situations.