Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Lanadra]

What's unpleasant about holding griefers accountable?

Pretty much as Rinhi indicated earlier, if the only way the griefer is 'held accountable' is by reality contradicting what they're spouting.. and them being able to see so, nothing wrong. If it's someone else shoving it into their face.. hello there TOS violation, you getting reported.

[linayar]

accountability for toxic players who run their mouth about how player X or Y were doing so badly and how they themselves were the sole reason everything was fine, when in fact they did the least damage out of everyone - or a healer who complains and whines about having to solo heal when they're using they're overhealing everyone, never dps and use cure 2 and co on cooldown instead of lilies while their co-healer does use lilies or ogcd's, barely overheals and does a good amount of dps
with one, the unwarranted and toxic self-importance of those two examples about their 'great' performance would vanish immediately because there'd be undeniable proof that they're just plain wrong

note how I didn't mention that other players should call them out on it; I do think players like this would sing a different song if they'd see that they aren't playing as great as they think they do - and I'm all for warning and subsequently banning people should they use the (hypothetical official) parser to shame others



sorry, but have you read earlier posts in the thread? multiple posters were defending players who actively don't use their abilities for various reasons and that people should just accept it - and allow them to grief others because 'this is what you get when you use the DF'



please don't mistake me for sturm, we may share some viewpoints at times and our cats look similar, but we're wholly different moonies (though when we had the same haircut I was confused at times as well!)

Don't worry, I can tell the difference between you two.

I'm just using that post to show that I think that there is an exaggeration of the issue. I'm not saying there are no griefers, but it's not to the point that a new feature (official parser) is required for accountability. And yes, I have read about the earlier posts, but again, I think those who will defend actual "griefers" are in the minority, not that they don't exist. Context is also key as non-pf contents do allow for higher tolerance/lower expectation from the general community.

In the end, even with a parser, the existing "solutions" to player disagreements will still be the same. Actual griefers will not be persuaded by parser data while those who can be reasoned with can be reasoned with without parser data. At the same time, some disagreements have nothing to do with parser data, but "play style," which would not be solved by parser data.

[Raelsar]

I mean, good for you? I always give tips to new players when I end up in a low level dungeons and I see them struggling or explain the mechanics if someone is asking for it, but if you think I'm a tryhard elitist harda** on sprouts because I argue for people to play their class decently well? go off, I guess?
If you think that me wanting someone who has spent several tens (hundreds?) of hours playing to play their class in higher level dungeons/trials/raids well: what exactly is wrong with that? they've invested a lot of time into the game already and should've have a rudimentary grasp on the underlying mechanics at least, so wanting them to actually put their knowledge to proper use is wrong?

lanada said it well: it could serve as a wake up call to players who think they're doing well - to make them actually do well; it could serve as a reality check for toxic players who think they're god's greatest gift to earth when they were in fact doing less damage than both healers who's giving everyone crap
but I digress: I'm probably one of the nicest players you'd meet in game , I just want people to try to be as good as they can!

The problem with this sort of argument is that I've had the misfortune of seeing the tool get misused countless other times (mostly in WoW, and almost always as a bystander)... the times it's used as a "reality check" for players who are unaware of how bad they are doing or to put toxic players in line are few and far between.

A bit of an arbitrary number, but 90%+ of the time it was used to enable toxic behaviour; usually stroking their own ego due to big numbers or harassing another player for underperforming. And yes, it bled into even the lowest level group content; you would be kicked from the equivalent of Satasha for not performing perfectly, it really got that ridiculous. It's not the root cause of it, but the mechanism used by toxic individuals to justify their attitudes and behaviours.

---

In any case, the root cause of all the back and forth in this thread over whether or not parsers would be a good thing comes down to one side seeing the potential benefits... and the other side looking at the hellhole that is the WoW community has become, along with their chronic misuse of parsers (among other things) to justify toxic behaviour and arbitrary gatekeeping.

Pro-parsers seem to be deriving their arguments from the hope that they'll be used appropriately.
Anti-parsers need only look at WoW to see ample proof of how it can all go wrong.

There's certainly a "better safe than sorry" angle to all of this, but after seeing the other side and how far a community can sink when tools like these enable toxic behaviours? There's more than enough reason to play it safe and simply avoid implementing a tool that's more likely to have disastrous consequences than actually help players.

[Awha]

The problem with this sort of argument is that I've had the misfortune of seeing the tool get misused countless other times (mostly in WoW, and almost always as a bystander)... the times it's used as a "reality check" for players who are unaware of how bad they are doing or to put toxic players in line are few and far between.

A bit of an arbitrary number, but 90%+ of the time it was used to enable toxic behaviour; usually stroking their own ego due to big numbers or harassing another player for underperforming. And yes, it bled into even the lowest level group content; you would be kicked from the equivalent of Satasha for not performing perfectly, it really got that ridiculous. It's not the root cause of it, but the mechanism used by toxic individuals to justify their attitudes and behaviours.

---

In any case, the root cause of all the back and forth in this thread over whether or not parsers would be a good thing comes down to one side seeing the potential benefits... and the other side looking at the hellhole that is the WoW community has become, along with their chronic misuse of parsers (among other things) to justify toxic behaviour and arbitrary gatekeeping.

Pro-parsers seem to be deriving their arguments from the hope that they'll be used appropriately.
Anti-parsers need only look at WoW to see ample proof of how it can all go wrong.

There's certainly a "better safe than sorry" angle to all of this, but after seeing the other side and how far a community can sink when tools like these enable toxic behaviours? There's more than enough reason to play it safe and simply avoid implementing a tool that's more likely to have disastrous consequences than actually help players.

I mean I get your experience with WoW had a high use if harrassment and misuse. Though I am sure others had very different experiences. Like myself do not get me wrong I did see harassment and misuse though generally most of my experience would fall in the neutral or pleasant encounter.

Though I do get if one has had an overly negative experience with them in the past why they would be so against them.

[Caurcas]

The problem with this sort of argument is that I've had the misfortune of seeing the tool get misused countless other times (mostly in WoW, and almost always as a bystander)... the times it's used as a "reality check" for players who are unaware of how bad they are doing or to put toxic players in line are few and far between.

A bit of an arbitrary number, but 90%+ of the time it was used to enable toxic behaviour; usually stroking their own ego due to big numbers or harassing another player for underperforming. And yes, it bled into even the lowest level group content; you would be kicked from the equivalent of Satasha for not performing perfectly, it really got that ridiculous. It's not the root cause of it, but the mechanism used by toxic individuals to justify their attitudes and behaviours.

---

In any case, the root cause of all the back and forth in this thread over whether or not parsers would be a good thing comes down to one side seeing the potential benefits... and the other side looking at the hellhole that is the WoW community has become, along with their chronic misuse of parsers (among other things) to justify toxic behaviour and arbitrary gatekeeping.

Pro-parsers seem to be deriving their arguments from the hope that they'll be used appropriately.
Anti-parsers need only look at WoW to see ample proof of how it can all go wrong.

There's certainly a "better safe than sorry" angle to all of this, but after seeing the other side and how far a community can sink when tools like these enable toxic behaviours? There's more than enough reason to play it safe and simply avoid implementing a tool that's more likely to have disastrous consequences than actually help players.

So we shouldn't get a proper feedback system because another game with a completley different ToS and enforcement has issues? I hope you see the fault in the logic here.

[Lanadra]

So we shouldn't get a proper feedback system because another game with a completley different ToS and enforcement has issues? I hope you see the fault in the logic here.

You shouldn't get 'a proper feedback system' because Yoshi P has said you're not getting it.

[Caurcas]

You shouldn't get 'a proper feedback system' because Yoshi P has said you're not getting it.

Yoshi has changed his mind many times.

[Lanadra]

Yoshi has changed his mind many times.

And every time he looks at WoW he'll see why his mind has not changed on this particular thing, ever. If you honestly think he will, well, have fun screaming into the void.

[Caurcas]

And every time he looks at WoW he'll see why his mind has not changed on this particular thing, ever. If you honestly think he will, well, have fun screaming into the void.

Didn't take you for a mind reader. What are your rates?

[Awha]

Meh at this point it is not even about the transparency for me. I just want to see if making them open or legal turns this game into a raging dumpster fire that people seem some afraid of.