Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Goji1639]

In short those in favor from what I can tell have the stance a tool should not be held accountable for the potential harm it may cause while disregarding the potential good it may also have. Sure SE will never allow it having their player base be held personally accountable for their play would not be good for retention. I just wish the anti parsing community was more honest about why they are against it instead of hiding behind the sheild of they are toxic. At the very least some have been honest in saying they rather not run the risk of having to met a player made and enforced standard threshold for their job and ilvl in short they really do not feel the need to learn how to play properly which I can respect such level of honestly. It disagree and find it odd but I can respect it over well they led to toxic behavior and toxic behavior is bad. Especially when our game already has toxic behavior expect it is more in the form of passive aggressive nature them upfront in other games.

There's a segment of the community that wants everyone held accountable to their arbitrary standards, and parsers are their means to that end. Some people consider that toxic. It's not really an excuse; it's just a way of framing the behavior.

As for parsers themselves being toxic, you're basically just arguing semantics here. When gauging the worth of a tool you always have to look at who will be using it. Can you asses this game's community as a whole and honestly feel like parsers would be a positive addition?

I would actually enjoy having parsers standard in this game, but I'm not willing to take a disingenuous position to argue in favor of them. This community is one of the most bubbling under the surface toxic communities I've seen in any game. I completely understand why SE runs this game like a prison ward, punishes with an iron fist and won't give you kids access to any dangerous toys. It's definitely for your own good.

[Artemiz]

Im actually quite impressed that after over 15 years of arguing about parsers we can still hit a 30 page thread about them.

The answer is no, you can't have them, the devs have never moved so much as an inch on this. You can't have them because people will use them as a stick to beat others with. If you have ever communicated with players using 3rd party aps like Discord then you already know this is true. If you allow their use in game arguments will flare up in anything harder than copperbell mines.

The devs know this, so they won't let you have parsers and anyone who thinks they won't get used in a very negative way frequently is either naive or lying.

[Awha]

There's a segment of the community that wants everyone held accountable to their arbitrary standards, and parsers are their means to that end. Some people consider that toxic. It's not really an excuse; it's just a way of framing the behavior.

As for parsers themselves being toxic, you're basically just arguing semantics here. When gauging the worth of a tool you always have to look at who will be using it. Can you asses this game's community as a whole and honestly feel like parsers would be a positive addition?

I would actually enjoy having parsers standard in this game, but I'm not willing to take a disingenuous position to argue in favor of them. This community is one of the most bubbling under the surface toxic communities I've seen in any game. I completely understand why SE runs this game like a prison ward, punishes with an iron fist and won't give you kids access to any dangerous toys. It's definitely for your own good.

Tbh based off what I see the potential good in terms of offering the community a transparent means of having g proper discourse regarding performance. Though asking for my assessment is not a good call because I generally do not think a tool should be held accountable for the harm it may cause in the hands of people. I am in favor of lax restrictions across the board let people do as they please but have rules in place to punish those who misuse the tool with harsh punishments to act as a deterrent from such behavior. As mentioned I take the more reactive approach to punishment instead of proactive. Cause generally I feel of course depending on the context we generally in terms of FFXIV I do not think we have the means to properly make a judgement call on potential harm due to slight differences in terms of game balance and philosophy regarding encounter design.

With FFXIV class exclusion may not be as harmful as in other games due to generally outside out of a few cases like Bard even in that case no class within a role does not perform to such a large degree better then another that their viability would be questioned by the community at large. Generally in terms of META given this game now lacks many direct synergies as in other games the meta would not create such a massive difference in terms of ease of encounter like in other games. Also with the flexibility of job choice and gearing exclusion is not much of a concern. Still a concern but can we honestly say it will be as bad as it will be in other games? Personally I cannot make that judgement though I also think no can the other side.

Now in terms of pure raw numbers associated with the increase availability of the tool yes cases of misuse will go up, but I do wonder how large of a difference would be it compared to the amount of actionable reports currently. Then when accounted for such an increase of availability how large would the difference would be between both data points.

Though I do agree amount of misuse reports would go up but I do wonder how many of said reports would be considered action worthy. Though I get generally people are often more in favor of more proactive approach when it comes to things. I get it often easier to take prove me it wrong approach using other data points and other points of reference. Though I am often in favor of let us just test it and see what happens though I get doing that is not possible.

[Katie_Kitty]

Im actually quite impressed that after over 15 years of arguing about parsers we can still hit a 30 page thread about them.

The answer is no, you can't have them, the devs have never moved so much as an inch on this. You can't have them because people will use them as a stick to beat others with. If you have ever communicated with players using 3rd party aps like Discord then you already know this is true. If you allow their use in game arguments will flare up in anything harder than copperbell mines.

The devs know this, so they won't let you have parsers and anyone who thinks they won't get used in a very negative way frequently is either naive or lying.

Anyone who thinks they aren't already being used that way is either naive or lying. This is no different from saying "no pot shops in my hometown!!" Guess what, cannabis is already being sold in your home town, just not by responsible people.

[Goji1639]

Tbh based off what I see the potential good in terms of offering the community a transparent means of having g proper discourse regarding performance. Though asking for my assessment is not a good call because I generally do not think a tool should be held accountable for the harm it may cause in the hands of people. I am in favor of lax restrictions across the board let people do as they please but have rules in place to punish those who misuse the tool with harsh punishments to act as a deterrent from such behavior. As mentioned I take the more reactive approach to punishment instead of proactive. Cause generally I feel of course depending on the context we generally in terms of FFXIV I do not think we have the means to properly make a judgement call on potential harm due to slight differences in terms of game balance and philosophy regarding encounter design.

With FFXIV class exclusion may not be as harmful as in other games due to generally outside out of a few cases like Bard even in that case no class within a role does not perform to such a large degree better then another that their viability would be questioned by the community at large. Generally in terms of META given this game now lacks many direct synergies as in other games the meta would not create such a massive difference in terms of ease of encounter like in other games. Also with the flexibility of job choice and gearing exclusion is not much of a concern. Still a concern but can we honestly say it will be as bad as it will be in other games? Personally I cannot make that judgement though I also think no can the other side.

Now in terms of pure raw numbers associated with the increase availability of the tool yes cases of misuse will go up, but I do wonder how large of a difference would be it compared to the amount of actionable reports currently.

The people who want that discourse regarding performance are already having it. Handing parsers to everyone in casual content will only result in that discourse being forced on people who don't want it, in situations that don't need it.

Parsers have caused problems in other games, but this game specifically has one of the largest collections of insecure people I've ever seen. I've honestly never seen a game where people get so worked up over something like a no DPS Healer making a 15 minute easy as piss expert roulette take 18 minutes. This forum specifically is like a shrine to people having mini meltdowns over the most 'who the hell cares' trivial crap. I don't see how adding official parsers to this would be anything short of a disaster.

[Wavaryen]

Anyone who thinks they aren't already being used that way is either naive or lying. This is no different from saying "no pot shops in my hometown!!" Guess what, cannabis is already being sold in your home town, just not by responsible people.

Sure, but it is reportable if you talk about it in the game chat. Or say hey you random person in this queued group. Your dps sucks our healer is beating you blah blah. I mean whatever players do outside the game in discord or whatever is up to them. The GMS are very harsh on players who talk down to others. And in other mmorpgs this tool is used for it.


Sure, you could say adding it to the game and report players who do that can still be done. Why can't we have both? Well if history shows us anything, a ton. MMO players can be some of the most fickled, hardcore, hateful bunch. We seen this, and As this game get bigger and bigger we are getting more and more of them types of players. It can't be helped. So picture just how much work the GMS going to have to do once it gets added and ok to talk about with players?


So it is better to have the fear of being banned, and keep things either to yourself or outside the game. Than bring it into the game itself. That is what developers feel and after playing other mmorpgs. I can't blame them.

[Awha]

The people who want that discourse regarding performance are already having it. Handing parsers to everyone in casual content will only result in that discourse being forced on people who don't want it, in situations that don't need it.

Parsers have caused problems in other games, but this game specifically has one of the largest collections of insecure people I've ever seen. I've honestly never seen a game where people get so worked up over something like a no DPS Healer making a 15 minute easy as piss expert roulette take 18 minutes. This forum specifically is like a shrine to people having mini meltdowns over the most 'who the hell cares' trivial crap. I don't see how adding official parsers to this would be anything short of a disaster.

That is the thing at least from my from my view if you are part of the group your performance by default should be open to criticism. I find having data to back up claims when it comes to talking about ones performance is extremely helpful and helps keep the discourse honest and transparent. Though I do understand why some would be against such a thing or view it as a means of being intolerant.

As you said sure this game does have a large insecure base I will grant that. Though I will say by in large that insecurity is based around this fear of being held accountable by a group standard. Though I get nothing can or will be done and this is why I just silently remove such people from my groups. In truth I wish I could be more transparent and say you were removed for x y and a but sadly that is not the case.

Though I will grant it would be a disaster towards those that wish to hide fly under the radar or hide behind the thin vale of well the content was cleared.

In truth you do not know how many times I have dps ask me why I do not give them cards as an ast and Instead give majority to the tank. I wish I could say well the tank is doing more damage. Though alas they will live in the blissful ignorance that they just ran into a scrub healer that did not know how to play. Which is fine and I get it that people play for different reasons and have different goals. I am just use fan of being transparent across the board. Never liked hiding behind white lies or loopholes but I will do what I must to enjoy my experience within FFXIV.

[Goji1639]

That is the thing at least from my from my view if you are part of the group your performance by default should be open to criticism. I find having data to back up claims when it comes to talking about ones performance is extremely helpful and helps keep the discourse honest and transparent. Though I do understand why some would be against such a thing or view it as a means of being intolerant.

As you said sure this game does have a large insecure base I will grant that. Though I will say by in large that insecurity is based around this fear of being held accountable by a group standard. Though I get nothing can or will be done and this is why I just silently remove such people from my groups. In truth I wish I could be more transparent and say you were removed for x y and a but sadly that is not the case.

Though I will grant it would be a disaster towards those that wish to hide fly under the radar or hide behind the thin vale of well the content was cleared.

In truth you do not know how many times I have dps ask me why I do not give them cards as an ast and Instead give majority to the tank. I wish I could say well the tank is doing more damage. Though alas they will live in the blissful ignorance that they just ran into a scrub healer that did not know how to play.

It seems like you just want to be able to call people out in situations where it isn't really needed or wanted. That's honest of you, but it's also being contentious purely for the sake of being contentious; and that's a little petty. It's something that I feel you want to do mainly to make yourself feel better, but you try to convince yourself that it's all in the name of 'transparent discourse.'

People becoming confrontational with new or casual players just to appease their own frustrations, or stroke their egos, is exactly why SE won't allow parsers, though. The fact that you feel the need to gratify yourself at their expense is kind of why I agree with SE's position, despite the fact that I do enjoy parsers.

[Awha]

It seems like you just want to be able to call people out in situations where it isn't really needed or wanted. That's honest of you, but it's also being contentious purely for the sake of being contentious; and that's a little petty. It's something that I feel you want to do mainly to make yourself feel better, but you try to convince yourself that it's all in the name of 'transparent discourse.'

People becoming confrontational with new or casual players just to appease their own frustrations, or stroke their egos, is exactly why SE won't allow parsers, though. The fact that you feel the need to gratify yourself at their expense is kind of why I agree with SE's position, despite the fact that I do enjoy parsers.

Please understand it has nothing with wanting to make myself feel better, it is not an aspect of validation I seek. By in large this why for the most part I generally queue with friends or people I know. Since I often just view random strangers as nothing more then NPCs that happen to be slightly better on average then trusts.

As said I know full well this will not happen and I already have my own means ingame to deal with such things I find to be an inconvenience. I am an extremely black and white person I personally rather know where I stand with someone and I also like to give people a clear cut reason as to why I do something at the very least when possible.

I generally just do not like playing with people that play appear to not be trying for whatever reason it may be. Though that point aside I do understand how my silent kicks also do not do much to alleviate the problems I have with the current skill level of the game on average. This is why I would love to be able to show people in game where they are going wrong with numbers. In short as many have said in other threads I should treat people as I would like to be treated and this is how I would like to be treated that if removed I would love to know the reason why. Just like if someone does not like me or something I do wish to know the reason sure I cannot change it but still I do like that level of transparency when it comes to people. I get this is different by most people standards since many operate on have nothing nice to say do not say anything at all. Me I rather hear the not so nice things then have the person bottle it up. This is why irl I tell people exactly how I feel about them, in game I no longer do that cause I already have a strike on my account for such level of honestly.

Here is the other thing I feel when it comes to needs or wants it is all subjective. Sure do I need to try and remove the small pull tank? Nah, hell it probably would be faster to just stick it out then to remove them. Though for me I find small pulls boring as shit so if I run into a tank that does it I will try to remove them at the 5 min mark and if it passes cool, if it does not then I have a call to make stay or leave. More often in the rare occasion they do not pass I just leave. Though I am also not happy I have to hide behind such a loophole and wish I could just be forthright though I value my own account over staying consistent with my own value system. Sure you may feel it is about making myself feel better though for lack of better words I really do not care what a stranger thinks that I place slightly above a trust. This is also why I do not feel what people should not feel the action of being removed is a personal one cause I know when I remove someone it is often just a product of me not wanting to deal with whatever trait that stranger may have. So taking it personally is silly since it just allows the person to live rent free when in the grand scheme to do think the ones that did the removal or said the hurtful thing forgot about the person or only mention the person as a passing joke.

Though yes I do wish I could provide data to back up my stance for removing someone.

Do not get me wrong I do understand where SE comes from I do not agree with it but I do get from the sense of fostering a healthy community my stance is not productive to that ends in this community or this era of gamers.

[RushRiviera]

Lots of interesting ideas and differing opinions in this post, so I took the time to try to come up with a system that addresses all the different concerns while also appealing to the desires of many others. it's quite long and I've had to go into detail across 3 separate posts so I decided to give it it's own thread. You can find it here if you're interested: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ormance-system