Parsers add replayability for casual players

[xxmiamorecadenza]

Not just streamers. Literally the entire raid scene uses parsers for the most part. And Square Enix knows if they ever found a way to ban parsers, said raid scene dies with it. That's why they will never do anything about them.

I think a lot of casuals would be happy to get rid of raiders and the content we genuinely enjoy. Which is why threads like these dissolve into an ‘us vs them’ theme.

It’s unsurprising a sizable number of us genuinely dislike each other.

[TaleraRistain]

I think a lot of casuals would be happy to get rid of raiders and the content we genuinely enjoy. Which is why threads like these dissolve into an ‘us vs them’ theme.

Consider the argument in this thread. Many raiders are coming in and saying they want to not only hold people to their arbitrary standards in their own content, but they want the content aimed at the casual playerbase to also hold to those arbitrary standards.

Raiders don't like casuals who don't prepare for the hardcore content and who don't view that content with a hardcore mindset. That's a fair assessment. But another fair assessment is that the more hardcore playerbase can't and won't accept the casual mindset in the casual's content and instead want to force their own rules on it.

If raiders want casuals to respect their content, they have to also be willing to respect the casual's content.

[ZedxKayn]

Consider the argument in this thread. Many raiders are coming in and saying they want to not only hold people to their arbitrary standards in their own content, but they want the content aimed at the casual playerbase to also hold to those arbitrary standards.

Raiders don't like casuals who don't prepare for the hardcore content and who don't view that content with a hardcore mindset. That's a fair assessment. But another fair assessment is that the more hardcore playerbase can't and won't accept the casual mindset in the casual's content and instead want to force their own rules on it.

If raiders want casuals to respect their content, they have to also be willing to respect the casual's content.

Asking for a SCH to summon their fairy or a DRG to use their DoT and to not have a mental breakdown when asked to try to do something is not being hardcore. Christ. That's what is bothering the oh so toxic pro-parser elitists. No one is gonna care as long as a modicum of mindfulness is put in multiplayer content.

[SturmChurro]

Asking for a SCH to summon their fairy or a DRG to use their DoT and to not have a mental breakdown when asked to try to do something is not being hardcore. Christ. That's what is bothering the oh so toxic pro-parser elitists. No one is gonna care as long as a modicum of mindfulness is put in multiplayer content.

It's so weird to me. That expecting basic level competency is somehow frowned upon. These players are literally dragging down parties, completely wasting other people's time, but they need to be coddled. It's rude to everyone else putting in a slight effort to play their jobs rightly. This isn't like ESO, where you choose your favorite four or five skills from hundreds. There are set combos, rotations, for specific purpose. Choosing not to use them is griefing, frankly.

[Artemiz]

It's so weird to me. That expecting basic level competency is somehow frowned upon. These players are literally dragging down parties, completely wasting other people's time, but they need to be coddled. It's rude to everyone else putting in a slight effort to play their jobs rightly. This isn't like ESO, where you choose your favorite four or five skills from hundreds. There are set combos, rotations, for specific purpose. Choosing not to use them is griefing, frankly.

What's weird to me is people strawmanning others by suggesting if you're against parsers its because you are happy to have a party full of semi trained chimps.

I've lost count of the amount of endgame groups I've been in over the years that have 3rd party communication. They all used parsers and if they had been allowed to announce results in game then griefing and shaming would have quickly followed. Many groups would post event parse results in 3rd party aps as a procedure after each event. This can cause arguments as it is but good leaders can usually manage these situations, those brakes won't be applied in random parties though.

SE are reasonably happy with the current situation, if you parse and keep your mouth shut they don't care. Make one mention of it though and they have you on ToS. If they let the cat out of the bag and allow parsers they will spend far too much time having to mediate silly arguments about pointless crap.

As I said before this argument is very old, its raged since before FFXIV was but a twinkle in Yoshi P's eye, back in FFXI, both parsers and windower were discussed and argued about to death. The devs didn't budge an inch, and there is nothing to suggest they will start now.

[SturmChurro]

What's weird to me is people strawmanning others by suggesting if you're against parsers its because you are happy to have a party full of semi trained chimps.

I've lost count of the amount of endgame groups I've been in over the years that have 3rd party communication. They all used parsers and if they had been allowed to announce results in game then griefing and shaming would have quickly followed. Many groups would post event parse results in 3rd party aps as a procedure after each event. This can cause arguments as it is but good leaders can usually manage these situations, those brakes won't be applied in random parties though.

SE are reasonably happy with the current situation, if you parse and keep your mouth shut they don't care. Make one mention of it though and they have you on ToS. If they let the cat out of the bag and allow parsers they will spend far too much time having to mediate silly arguments about pointless [...].

As I said before this argument is very old, its raged since before FFXIV was but a twinkle in Yoshi P's eye, back in FFXI, both parsers and windower were discussed and argued about to death. The devs didn't budge an inch, and there is nothing to suggest they will start now.

I'm going to be real with you here, I didn't read anything prior. I was simply giving my opinion on the community's general stance on the players who choose to not use skills.

What exactly does having an in-game parser have to do with this? Like, I get players don't want to see their own numbers - especially if they aren't very good, but other people can already see their numbers now. I assume the policy wouldn't change as it is currently.

They are already spending far too much time mediating silly arguments and pointless reports, in my opinion. It's pretty well known that the FFXIV community will report each other for anything and everything. I doubt an official parser - if added - would change much here in this regard, the smart players would continue to keep their mouths shut out of fear of a strike, and potential ban.

[linayar]

other people can already see their numbers now.

Then I guess we don't need an in-game parser.

It's pretty well known that the FFXIV community will report each other for anything and everything.

What may be "pretty well known" does not always match individual experiences.

[TaleraRistain]

Asking for a SCH to summon their fairy or a DRG to use their DoT and to not have a mental breakdown when asked to try to do something is not being hardcore. Christ. That's what is bothering the oh so toxic pro-parser elitists. No one is gonna care as long as a modicum of mindfulness is put in multiplayer content.

That's not related to parsing. And both raider and casual in this thread have said that just not doing anything isn't okay. But the focus of the thread was on parsing and incremental changes in numbers and how that is supposed to improve the game for casual players.

It doesn't, because casual players don't focus on that. It just invites toxicity and negativity. And my point about respecting casual content is that things like numbers aren't as important in casual content. A clear can still happen by the game design because as others have said, the devs expect the strong players will help the weak. And many of the casual mindset are happy to do exactly that, because they understand there needs to be more leeway for different playstyles in the less hardcore content.

So as I said, casuals need to respect that harder content requires a focused mentality and playstyle. But raiders also need to respect that casual content requires a more flexible mentality and playstyle. Right now, as another poster mentioned, the raider side is trying to gatekeep and dictate who can even play the game at all, and that's just not right. There's room for everyone in this game.

[ZedxKayn]

That's not related to parsing. And both raider and casual in this thread have said that just not doing anything isn't okay. But the focus of the thread was on parsing and incremental changes in numbers and how that is supposed to improve the game for casual players.

It doesn't, because casual players don't focus on that. It just invites toxicity and negativity. And my point about respecting casual content is that things like numbers aren't as important in casual content. A clear can still happen by the game design because as others have said, the devs expect the strong players will help the weak. And many of the casual mindset are happy to do exactly that, because they understand there needs to be more leeway for different playstyles in the less hardcore content.

So as I said, casuals need to respect that harder content requires a focused mentality and playstyle. But raiders also need to respect that casual content requires a more flexible mentality and playstyle. Right now, as another poster mentioned, the raider side is trying to gatekeep and dictate who can even play the game at all, and that's just not right. There's room for everyone in this game.

It is related to parsing as I've said earlier because what might be obvious to a very experienced player might not be obvious to the average Joe or even the underperformer themselves without numbers telling them so.

It's gonna be especially useful in 8 man content where a player might see themselves do really low numbers when they had no clue it would be possible for them to contribute that little and could make them be more open to suggestions, ask questions, look up guides, etc, which ties in to OP's point. Or alternatively, it would be easier to hold leeches accountable if the low numbers come from a place of laziness, and what's the most important to me allow people who heal properly to defend themselves against the "healers heal" crowd.

[Shurrikhan]

I think a lot of casuals would be happy to get rid of raiders and the content we genuinely enjoy. Which is why threads like these dissolve into an ‘us vs them’ theme.

Consider the argument in this thread. Many raiders are coming in and saying they want to not only hold people to their arbitrary standards in their own content, but they want the content aimed at the casual playerbase to also hold to those arbitrary standards.

I guess that just brings to question, what is an arbitrary standard?

Let's not pretend the numbers (e.g., boss HP and enrage timers) aren't coming from somewhere. Do we call each player playing at ~80% of what their character, if perfectly mapped out, could do in that fight under identical conditions "arbitrary"?
If the enrage timer were set to whatever clear time play-testers managed with mild experience over the given spec but decent enough understanding of many other factors of "good play" in the average of a few trial runs, is that, too, "arbitrary"?

Similarly, if someone, in having found several more ways by which to engage with their job -- say, by learning how to make use of a Yaten-Enpi extension for rotational sync, how to swap in an early Yuki rotationally to have Yaten-Enpi available for forced melee downtime, when to rotate in a Yuki-Hagakure vs. a Gekko/Kasha-Hagakure, when to remain in scripted Haga rotation vs. switch to "overclocked" or "ad-hoc" rotation -- and like that content is initially tuned for a given tier to have stakes by which that engagement felt pertinent and rewarding, is it "arbitrary" that they would want to see that tuning principle remain?