Male Viera names?

[Theodric]

I mean, I suppose you're welcome to disregard the attached context ("institutionalized child murder," by the way) if that makes it easier for you to paint me as some unreasonable gender crusader.

You didn't actually respond to any of my relevant points re: writing and humanity, so there's not much else I can say to you.

This interview excerpt may be of help:

Shadowbringers may leave players feeling emotionally conflicted at its end. What interested you about making players feel a bit unsure about whether they’re doing the right thing?

Yoshida: I touched on this in a previous answer as well, but I would be delighted if Final Fantasy XIV served as a catalyst for people to ponder about themselves, their surroundings, parents, siblings, friends, and society, instead of holding onto the idea that good is rewarded and evil is punished. That said, we are entertainers, not philosophers—our greatest joy would be for players to enjoy the game, one way or another.

Source: https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...gh-emet-selch/

The game is but that at the end of the day - a game. Others are free to do as they so please, but bear in mind that many of us do not view the world in the same way as those who frequent social media and drop loaded terms into a debate as a point of concern. Some are just here to enjoy the story and discuss elements within it without getting lost in endless circular arguments revolving around morality.

I'm personally comfortable enough in my own moral compass that I need not have the media I consume constantly reinforce it, though. As always, I suspect that the prudent course would be to agree to disagree. I'm not here to argue or get into mud slinging matches. I'm simply here to discuss the game's characters and story.

Ultimately I think it's fine for a non human race in a fictional fantasy setting to not conform to modern day concepts of morality. I'm not really sure what's controversial with that stance - and of course, others are free to disagree with it if they so wish but again, it's a game - I don't think anybody needs to get angry over it.

[Lauront]

I agree with Theodric, I am rather glad to see that they stuck with their guns with the race's unorthodox approach, since it helps emphasise their grittier aspects.

I will look forward to playing one as a wandering merc should the design options be to my liking.

[Iscah]

I think what I was more getting at is, it's not "not" a concept of gender just because it doesn't kick in until puberty. The implications seem to be they're raised in the village by women, and then sent off to live with the men once "things" become apparent. Yeah, kids are stupid, but they generally start forming an identity well before hormones kick in, and that system basically guarantees the omnipresence of "female" role models to pattern behavior off of.

The thing is, where are they going to get that concept of gender from, and form that identity upon, if the only thing they know about men is that they're not allowed to live in the village?

And apparently the women do everything that the men would do anyway, besides the additional ultra-survivalist skills that need to be taught from warder to apprentice.

At most you'd have some kids showing a preference about what role they'll have to take up, but that isn't necessarily tied to gender even in a culture with the normal concepts of male and female.

Because honestly, as soon as I started trying to reconcile that with the "forced into a death game to prove their masculinity because they grew a penis at age 12" thing my brain started to melt. There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

I think I'm missing the subtext, but you've got it upside-down saying they do it to "prove their masculinity". Their masculinity has been inarguably proven by the fact that they grew into a man, and that is why they have to get out there.

You will inevitably get a child perfect for village life who ends up growing in the other direction. The reverse as well. It would be an easier pill to swallow if the truth of Viera ended up somewhere along the lines of "we can make exceptions in either direction depending on the child, and our societal equivalents of your quaint notions of 'gender' are purely based on function."

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

The big thing is, tradition and religion make people throughout history do a lot of things that make no sense from a secular perspective. Do this, wear that, eat certain foods, don't approach the sacred mountain or the wrath of the gods will fall upon the village and it will be all your fault.

And this being fantasy fiction, there's a particularly high chance that the gods actually are ready to inflict their wrath.

If it's a matter of practicality, determining societal role purely by physical gender isn't a great approach, and maybe it would be helpful to let the warders come home for dinner too.

If it's the sacred will of the forest that men become warders and leave the village, you don't argue with the sacred will of the forest. That's just the Way Things Are and you take up your role or accept exile as your only other option.


Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

[Theodric]

An excellent post, Iscah.

I also think that another good way to look at it is through the lens of the natural world. I like to go hiking in forests and mountains, so I see a lot of such things in their purest form. Nature can seem both wondrous and cruel to us, but it is what it is and it works in its own way.

We might find a specific animal to be very cute, though as it is part of the food chain another, bigger animal will seek to consume it. There's no malice in the act, it's just how it works.

I like spiders. I think they're cool creatures who help get rid of pests. I also like cats and own one - she's adorable, though if she sees a spider she chases and kills it. I wouldn't make a moral judgement on that act because...it's instinctive behaviour.

Bringing the conversation back to Viera, that's how I see it. They aren't modern day real world humans, thus they have different instincts, cultural norms and behaviours.

[WhiteArchmage]

Agree with most of your post but just be be pedantic here; he also says they came up with it during XII's development, and that his reasoning for saying it doesn't apply to XII is only because he left that game's development before it had the chance to be published somewhere.

My bad, then! Must've missed that part.

The thing is, where are they going to get that concept of gender from, and form that identity upon, if the only thing they know about men is that they're not allowed to live in the village?

And apparently the women do everything that the men would do anyway, besides the additional ultra-survivalist skills that need to be taught from warder to apprentice.

At most you'd have some kids showing a preference about what role they'll have to take up, but that isn't necessarily tied to gender even in a culture with the normal concepts of male and female.

That's basically my understanding, their concept of gender would be different than ours, and children not thinking of themselves as either male or female; and probably the rest of the village not thinking of them as either but just as a nebulous gender-neutral "children". Or they may think of them as girls until proven otherwise, who knows.

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

Indeed, and I don't believe the intention is we're supposed to overthrow their traditions or anything of the sort. If anything, it serves as an easy way for player characters to leave said society. For any reason from "dislikes the role the Green Word gave them" all the way to "Gender dysphoria is a <kupo!> in a society with a heavy emphasis in a sex-based-binary." (though, of course, since backstory headcanons are JUST headcanons, it can also be as innocent as "the Will of the Woods said we'd be better off protecting the Jungle from X/Y/Z event")

[Fenral]

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

I think the key will be in how (or if) it ends up depicted in-game at all. I think to me, it seems a waste to have Viera children grow up genderless only for them to be sorted out later. On the one hand, you end up with an all-male-bodied group and all-female-bodied group of otherwise genderless beings, which I agree is neat, but on the other, dividing them up at all feels like its wasting the potential of exploring a truly genderblind society.

But then...

Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

This. Matsuno crafted a very solid explanation on the assumption that it would never need to be walked back. But here we are. It wasn't until Heavensward that the devs really felt they could relax a bit on the scarcity of male Miqo'te, and then they were not only all over the place, but didn't really stick to the "established lore" beyond naming conventions, carrying with it the implications that enough had moved on from the old ways.

Will the Dramaturge still talk about how nobody's ever seen a male Viera? Will we get some sort of disaster-induced exodus like the Au Ra to explain their sudden presence? How much of their society would they try to hold onto if they were forced to live alongside other races? There's a lot to ponder.

Also, I certainly hope you haven't mistake my willingness to debate with you for any kind of personal attack. I know I can come across as harsh (I blame the perma-scowl on the character avatars), but I'm not actually that invested in an outcome here. From our minimal interactions on these forums, you seem like a cool, articulate person with interesting ideas.

[_Koneko_]

I rather they don't exist outside of the woods let the wol be the only male viera we see i would say the same about the cat bois but sadly that ship sailed after they pandered to the QQ'ers FF 11 > FF 14

[Kakurady]

It wasn't until Heavensward that the devs really felt they could relax a bit on the scarcity of male Miqo'te, and then they were not only all over the place, but didn't really stick to the "established lore" beyond naming conventions, carrying with it the implications that enough had moved on from the old ways.

My headcanon to explain the proliferation of male Miqo'te adventurers is that something happened 25 years ago (Battle of Silvertear Lake?) that affected the gender balance of the Miqo'te. At least, that's what I would use for the backstory of a Miqo'te PC.

[FrightfulNight]

My headcanon to explain the proliferation of male Miqo'te adventurers is that something happened 25 years ago (Battle of Silvertear Lake?) that affected the gender balance of the Miqo'te. At least, that's what I would use for the backstory of a Miqo'te PC.

One thing I have noticed in ShB is that unlike on the First compared to the Source there appears to be a more 50/50 gender balance of male and female Mystal, the Firsts equivalent of the Miqo'te. So the larger quantities of male Mystal NPCs at least makes sense there. Who knows in the future at some point they may take us to another shard were something similar is present for that shards equivalent of the Viera as an excuse to show more male Viera NPCs.

[Iscah]

Will the Dramaturge still talk about how nobody's ever seen a male Viera? Will we get some sort of disaster-induced exodus like the Au Ra to explain their sudden presence? How much of their society would they try to hold onto if they were forced to live alongside other races? There's a lot to ponder.

I don't think there'll necessarily be a claim of their "sudden presence" because if the WoL is a Viera, that means they've been emerging from the woods since at least some time prior to the beginning of the story. It's going to require either a subtle rewrite or explicit disproving of the Dramaturge's current claims to bring in any kind of alteration to the lore he provides, but it won't be because the situation within the game has changed since he delivered it.

As for how to take their societal views into the wider world, I'm playing with that myself trying to work out what my hypothetical alt makes of the whole thing. I think he's fine with being a man but doesn't really have a concept for what that means besides being a warder, though maybe being an adventurer is close enough.

I wonder if it's even an upside-down thing where activity=gender to the point that adventuring is "being male" and staying in one place is "being female" and that could lead to the idea of dressing as a man while adventuring and a woman while staying in town for a longer period, and not seeing that as anything remarkable. (This could also explain why non-Viera people think they've only seen female Viera in the cities!)

Or maybe it's just as simple as being a man, because he is.

I'm not sure which way I want to take that and I think it's going to partly depend on what new official lore we get regarding them.

Of course, the attitude of exiled Viera to their culture is all dependent on why they decided to leave the village in the first place. Did they leave to dodge their cultural expectations or because they felt called to serve the village best by journeying beyond it? They might want to hold to their traditions as much as they can, or they might be glad to be rid of the whole thing and just entirely take on the new culture they've landed in.


Come to think of it - from the WoL's specific lore, it does seem like a very Azemish thing to say "stuff your overbearing traditions, I'm off to see the world and help people as best I can."

Also, I certainly hope you haven't mistake my willingness to debate with you for any kind of personal attack. I know I can come across as harsh (I blame the perma-scowl on the character avatars), but I'm not actually that invested in an outcome here. From our minimal interactions on these forums, you seem like a cool, articulate person with interesting ideas.

No offence taken, and thankyou for the compliment!

And yes, perma-scowl on the avatars is a bit of a thing. Some get it worse than others.