Male Viera names?

[Iscah]

I do agree it's convoluted and not really necessary as an explanation, but all the same I just find it interesting to have characters from different cultures with different concepts of gender. It doesn't take away from the possibility of someone's mental gender not matching their body; it just means it's going to come up in a different form to a culture where everyone knows their physical gender from birth and is treated accordingly.

There's not much potential to recognise it while in the tribe and following the cultural rules, but they can still leave and embrace whatever identity they want once they're out in the wider world - though as I said, they're just going to have a different vocabulary and outlook about what it means and what gender roles even are.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Think it’s also important to note since it’s a fantasy game they don’t take every real life approach/don’t have the same logistics or even biology as us. So it may not be something that even pertains to them unlike IRL.

[Iscah]

I just can't see the society being accepting of people saying "oh, but I don't feel like I'm a man, I'm sure I'm really a woman so I should be able to stay in the village" - not when the ones who do accept their physical gender might not be too happy about being pushed out of the tribe either.

I also think the whole society would just depend on everyone being in the mindset of following their ordained duty and it simply is more about following that physical indication of their role, regardless of what they think of it. eg. "I don't really feel like I've become a man - however that is supposed to feel - but my body indicates that I am, so it's my duty to become a warder."


To be clear, I have no issue with the idea of trans characters in the wider picture of Eorzean society that has a concept of gender similar to modern western society, with male and female stereotypes and the ability for anyone to aspire to any kind of role, but I think it's a waste of interesting ideas to look at the strictly-divided-by-physical-gender tribe and assume they'll have the same attitude to letting people live according to which gender they feel like. The interest comes from figuring out how someone would think about gender from that society's viewpoint, and what they would make of Eorzean social concepts once they got there - basically having to make sense of how they feel and which gender they actually want to identify with rather than what everyone in the tribe, including themselves, thought a straightforward question of body shape.


TL;DR: You need to have a concept of gender before you can decide you don't fit into it, and I don't think Viera would have it in the way we think of it.


Also from a purely practical standpoint (and at least to my awareness), they never go back and add new minor characters to towns unless it's to unlock some kind of new side activity. If we see male Viera NPCs of any gender, they're going to be in places we haven't seen yet.

[Fenral]

I think what I was more getting at is, it's not "not" a concept of gender just because it doesn't kick in until puberty. The implications seem to be they're raised in the village by women, and then sent off to live with the men once "things" become apparent. Yeah, kids are stupid, but they generally start forming an identity well before hormones kick in, and that system basically guarantees the omnipresence of "female" role models to pattern behavior off of.

Because honestly, as soon as I started trying to reconcile that with the "forced into a death game to prove their masculinity because they grew a penis at age 12" thing my brain started to melt. There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

You will inevitably get a child perfect for village life who ends up growing in the other direction. The reverse as well. It would be an easier pill to swallow if the truth of Viera ended up somewhere along the lines of "we can make exceptions in either direction depending on the child, and our societal equivalents of your quaint notions of 'gender' are purely based on function."

Sunseekers work because tia always have the option to opt out and come back later (or not at all), while females sticking to the tribe structure choose when they mate with the nunh, and not the other way around. Nunh itself is a voluntary position with very clear disclosures. There's consideration for free will there that keeps the society from collapsing in on itself. (For a no-free-will counterexample, go watch Kemono Jihen.)

[Theodric]

There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

The Viera are a fictional race in a fantasy game. They're not the equivalent to modern day humans in the real world, thus their values and cultural beliefs/trends are going to differ. Those who disagree with the status quo take their leave, those who are content with it choose to remain.

This is all getting alarmingly close to the mentality of needing to educate and reform their tribal ways, though.

[Fenral]

The Viera are a fictional race in a fantasy game. They're not the equivalent to modern day humans in the real world, thus their values and cultural beliefs/trends are going to differ. Those who disagree with the status quo take their leave, those who are content with it choose to remain.

This is all getting alarmingly close to the mentality of needing to educate and reform their tribal ways, though.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. We don't have the full story, so all of this is speculation. What little we do have so far pushes the bounds of credibility for some of us who actually enjoy engaging with and critiquing our media on a deeper level. No values judgments are being made, though your knee-jerk reactions are always fairly telling.

That said, I think the Star Trek rule applies. The writers are human, and writings by humans are, by their very existence, explorations of humanity and human nature. Any pretensions otherwise, like "oh, but they're aliens," have only ever been a layer of plausible deniability used to facilitate discussions of issues that tend to make people a bit touchy. Like you and gender norms, which has already been very well established thank you and still contributes basically nothing.

If you don't like the discussion, just move on. I think we'd all prefer it if you kept your word about sticking to the stuff you liked and stopped constantly interjecting about the stuff you don't.

[Theodric]

No values judgments are being made, though your knee-jerk reactions are always fairly telling.

I'd be inclined to state that the poster singling me out for what has to be the tenth or so time would be the 'knee jerk reaction' in this specific case. I don't recall ever speaking to you in-game, but you seem to be familiar with me on some level. That aside...

There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

The 'unfortunate subtext' statement is what comes across as passing judgement.

That said, I think the Star Trek rule applies. The writers are human, and writings by humans are, by their very existence, explorations of humanity and human nature. Any pretensions otherwise, like "oh, but they're aliens," have only ever been a layer of plausible deniability used to facilitate discussions of issues that tend to make people a bit touchy. Like you and gender norms, which has already been very well established thank you and still contributes basically nothing.

Star Trek? We're discussing Final Fantasy XIV, rather than Star Trek. That aside, it's a pretty old show I believe and not everybody posting here is going to be familiar with it or even find it to their tastes.

I'm not sure what you're getting at in regards to the 'gender norms' comment. Could you elaborate?

If you don't like the discussion, just move on. I think we'd all prefer it if you kept your word about sticking to the stuff you liked and stopped constantly interjecting about the stuff you don't.

Just as you're free to post wherever you so wish, so too am I. I'm not sure where you're getting this 'we' from, either. Even if others agree with you this place is not a hive mind and we've thankfully moved past the days where narratives were controlled by a small group of active posters.

I'm not at all sure why you seem to think I should not weigh in on the subject of male viera, given that I've been one of the most vocal supporters of their inclusion over on the general discussion forum.

[Fenral]

The 'unfortunate subtext' statement is what comes across as passing judgement.

I mean, I suppose you're welcome to disregard the attached context ("institutionalized child murder," by the way) if that makes it easier for you to paint me as some unreasonable gender crusader.

You didn't actually respond to any of my relevant points re: writing and humanity, so there's not much else I can say to you.

[Iscah]

I think what I was more getting at is, it's not "not" a concept of gender just because it doesn't kick in until puberty. The implications seem to be they're raised in the village by women, and then sent off to live with the men once "things" become apparent. Yeah, kids are stupid, but they generally start forming an identity well before hormones kick in, and that system basically guarantees the omnipresence of "female" role models to pattern behavior off of.

The thing is, where are they going to get that concept of gender from, and form that identity upon, if the only thing they know about men is that they're not allowed to live in the village?

And apparently the women do everything that the men would do anyway, besides the additional ultra-survivalist skills that need to be taught from warder to apprentice.

At most you'd have some kids showing a preference about what role they'll have to take up, but that isn't necessarily tied to gender even in a culture with the normal concepts of male and female.

Because honestly, as soon as I started trying to reconcile that with the "forced into a death game to prove their masculinity because they grew a penis at age 12" thing my brain started to melt. There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

I think I'm missing the subtext, but you've got it upside-down saying they do it to "prove their masculinity". Their masculinity has been inarguably proven by the fact that they grew into a man, and that is why they have to get out there.

You will inevitably get a child perfect for village life who ends up growing in the other direction. The reverse as well. It would be an easier pill to swallow if the truth of Viera ended up somewhere along the lines of "we can make exceptions in either direction depending on the child, and our societal equivalents of your quaint notions of 'gender' are purely based on function."

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

The big thing is, tradition and religion make people throughout history do a lot of things that make no sense from a secular perspective. Do this, wear that, eat certain foods, don't approach the sacred mountain or the wrath of the gods will fall upon the village and it will be all your fault.

And this being fantasy fiction, there's a particularly high chance that the gods actually are ready to inflict their wrath.

If it's a matter of practicality, determining societal role purely by physical gender isn't a great approach, and maybe it would be helpful to let the warders come home for dinner too.

If it's the sacred will of the forest that men become warders and leave the village, you don't argue with the sacred will of the forest. That's just the Way Things Are and you take up your role or accept exile as your only other option.


Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

[Fenral]

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

I think the key will be in how (or if) it ends up depicted in-game at all. I think to me, it seems a waste to have Viera children grow up genderless only for them to be sorted out later. On the one hand, you end up with an all-male-bodied group and all-female-bodied group of otherwise genderless beings, which I agree is neat, but on the other, dividing them up at all feels like its wasting the potential of exploring a truly genderblind society.

But then...

Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

This. Matsuno crafted a very solid explanation on the assumption that it would never need to be walked back. But here we are. It wasn't until Heavensward that the devs really felt they could relax a bit on the scarcity of male Miqo'te, and then they were not only all over the place, but didn't really stick to the "established lore" beyond naming conventions, carrying with it the implications that enough had moved on from the old ways.

Will the Dramaturge still talk about how nobody's ever seen a male Viera? Will we get some sort of disaster-induced exodus like the Au Ra to explain their sudden presence? How much of their society would they try to hold onto if they were forced to live alongside other races? There's a lot to ponder.

Also, I certainly hope you haven't mistake my willingness to debate with you for any kind of personal attack. I know I can come across as harsh (I blame the perma-scowl on the character avatars), but I'm not actually that invested in an outcome here. From our minimal interactions on these forums, you seem like a cool, articulate person with interesting ideas.