Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Goji1639]

Someone who is bold enough to harass and attack a new player in Satasha, despite knowing it's breaking ToS, is not going to be a shining example of the community because a parser doesn't exist. A parser does not turn kind hearted individuals into raving monsters.
The abuser will either have ACT on in the background anyway and simply harass the new player for being "bad" without mentioning numbers or be the type to hurl abuse at tanks for going too fast or slow or healers for doing dps or not doing dps or pretty much anything else. Those players exist, even if we put our fingers in our ears and pretend it's all flowers and sunshine because we banned performance tools.

The biggest difference from WoW and FF14 is the zero tolerance on harassment. From my experience in WoW, the GM's don't really care. You can hurl all sorts of abuse, corpse camp, grief or insult players without consequence. They've developed a "grow a thicker skin" attitude, where complaining about abuse is looked down on. This encourages toxic behavior more than any tool.

FF14 Devs have a good attitude on harassment. But the hand-holding safety bubble attitude of pretending everyone is a nice person by hiding away every tool or indication of performance isn't healthy. There is a lot of toxicity bubbling away beneath the surface in the community. It builds resentment. It's why parser topics always end up in a "casual vs elitist" argument. Things like:

It's not pretending everyone is a nice person; it's acknowledging that most of the people in this community aren't actually nice people. A lot of people don't use ACT in this game specifically because it's not convenient and not supported. What silences the majority of this games toxic players is ignorance, but once you make harassment based on hard data convenient it'll open the floodgate.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like parsers and think they're incredibly useful and fun. I just don't see SE as the reason we can't have them; I blame all of you. If you were better people we could have nice things.

[StriderShinryu]

The anti-parser policy ends up as a way to stifle many people with valid concerns, who get frustrated at being expected to shut up and do unpaid, thankless work carrying instances.

As I've said a ton of times before, this just does not happen with anywhere near the frequency that some people say it does. And, as has also been said a ton of times before, if those players really do feel that they're forced into the thankless job of carrying casual players through (casual) content then they already have all of the tools they need to avoid this. A parser is not going to help anything or change that. A "bad" player isn't going to get good just because they have numbers thrown in their face, either by the game or by another player. And, frankly, the game (which we're all playing) as designed by the developers (who are developing the game we're all playing) does not require a more dedicated/hardcore approach. If someone wants to complain about casual players ruining everything and making their life an endless slog of carrying bads through the game then they should speak to the developers instead of haranguing the more casual player base. It's the developer's game and this is the way they have designed it. It really is that simple.

[Axxion]

The feeling is indeed very mutual.

they are a very wily. just to make you aware just check there history.

[TaleraRistain]

IF Square Enix EVER EVER listened to this guy and made parses widely available I would quit tomorrow along with 3/4 of the rest of the community. For some reason you guys think this is our first MMO or something. I have been playing these things longer then some of you have been alive.

Every single MMO that has widely accepted parses has had a toxic community.

This, and Wavaryen's post as well.

One pattern I've noticed among a lot of us who don't want an official parser is that we've seen it before. And we've seen the mentality destroy things we love.

I played EQII (among other MMOs like EQ before it) from beta for many years. I was a ranger class. I played before parsers were in common use. Maybe some world first guilds were using them, but they weren't used in solo or group content at that time. We had great debates on the official ranger forums and other ranger sites about how to utilize our many skills. And there were different ways. Even if we did talk about the effectiveness of this or that from what we could see on the tooltips and damage given in game, there was still room for a wide spectrum of play.

That is, until parsers started to be used commonly. Then it was all debates based around numbers, not creatively using your skills to pull something off. I eventually went full solo and even that started to get infected by the mentality, because those who held to certain parsing standards in group content felt that the solo content should also be up to those standards because they were bored and it was too easy for them. i go back now and then because Norrath was a huge part of my life over the past 20 years. I really just keep to myself because it's just so toxic.

SE has a good balance here. They keep hard dps checks and enrages in optional content like harder EX trials, Savage, and Ultimate. So those who want that playground can have it. The know people use parsers for that content and so long as said people don't talk about it in game, there's no action SE is going to take against them.

But for MSQ, dungeons, and alliance raids (outside one or two random examples like Deathgaze), you don't have those hard dps checks or enrages. Sure, mechs might get a bit spicy if the fight continues on, but it's a much more forgiving environment. There's no game design reason in that content for parsers, just the desire of some players to do it as fast as possible. So there's no reason to have something official. Se "allows" them where they are relevant but maintains their ability to take strong action if they are used inappropriately. Yes, it leaves console players who enjoy that optional content out, but the inclusion would hurt the overall game more. SE is making the smartest decision for the health of the game.

[Caurcas]

Game's community is not healthy. 14 is by far the most passive aggressive, boiling under the surface mmo community I've ever been apart of.

[TaleraRistain]

I think parsers are excellent tools. My problem lies with how some people use them. I have too many times seen people use them as a tool to be needlessly horrible to others. As long as the community stays as it is the most I would be okay with is a personal parser that displays a grade and detailed information at the end of content that is only viewable by the player. That way players could examine their own performance without an egotistical meanspirited player making their mistakes seem like a far bigger problem than they actually are.

Shibi made a good point about vloggers on page 4 of this thread who would influence what the "right" metrics should be. And that's the problem. Introduce this and the mentality would eke out into all areas of the game to the worse. This wouldn't stay personal. This wouldn't stay in just the harder optional content. It would spread and it would drive people away.

I agree with you that parsers can be great tools for personal use or in an environment where everyone is aware of their use and utilizing them appropriately to work together to clear. But it's not human nature to use them like that, and I think that's the argument many of us who don't want them in game are making. Especially if we've played other MMOs with their use. No community can manage to stay the same after they're introduced. And many end up the worse for it.

[TaleraRistain]

I make the effort to be as carebear and inoffensive as possible when voicing my tips but it still sets people off. "Holy is the single best mitigation tool and it's fun to use, you should try it out!" for example, how offensive is that? But there's a significant subset of the playerbase that needs to be shielded from that at risk of a very unpleasant experience for someone who dared try to help them.

I think part of the flaw in your approach is that it sounds like you don't ask if they want advice first. As I'm sure Velkallor also understands, you need to have establish an environment where people are receptive to your message. When you're in a leadership position, as they mentioned they have been and I myself have been, that environment is already established. It's still most effective to be constructive and polite, but my subordinates are already primed to receive instruction from me. Not so with a random person. I don't think there's anything wrong or insulting in what you've said, but if you toss advice to someone without making that environment where they'll be receptive to it, the criticism will come off in a much more harsh manner without intending to and the person will not be nearly as receptive. If you say something to someone you've noticed is struggling like "Hey I main that class and I think I have a few tips that might help. Would you like to hear them?" there are still going to be some who might snap but many will be receptive. You're making them an active part of choosing to get the advice and that shows respect. If they say no, that's fine. Just muddle through or leave if you need to and don't worry further about it. I've only ever had one or two people who said no. Many who are struggling realize they are struggling but feel helpless and alone, and putting yourself out there as someone who will help them if they need it makes a world of difference.

[TaleraRistain]

Answer: got tired of that treadmill years ago, flatly decided I didnt want to do it anymore. I have been invited SEVERAL times to join savage statics, I politely declined stating the days of me scheduling my life around a video game are gone forever.

I also have all jobs at 80, have enjoyed myself IMMENSELY. Whether one chooses to do "hard content" is irrelevant and no ones business but theirs, is it not?

You will find that a LOT of people who fit your "model" are in that category, we can do it any time we choose to, we simply are NOT INTERESTED in doing so. FF 14 isnt on a raid or die model, there is a ton to do outside savage and extreme, and we simply choose to follow what suits US.

Yesterday, spent an entire day gathering craft mats, crafting gear, chatting to people, doing some old maps, generally goofing around for the fun of it.

I could, if I wish, hit Bozja and grind out a relic weapon, but TBH again, it just doesnt interest me..there are a load of "glowy" weapons to glam from, so I dont see a need. I am aware it will be BIS for the latest patch, after that, it wont be, will it?

I log on when I want, do as I wish, log off as I choose, when I choose to, play as suits me. Im retired, and with that retirement came a small benefit I havent enjoyed in a long time..my time is my own to do as I wish, when I wish.



We are happy with what we have accomplished, and have nothing to prove to anyone. Been there, done that, got the t shirt, the coffee mug and the mouse mat.

Not doing it anymore.

Vel, when we have DC Visit, you and I need to friend up. I agree with everything you said. My friends have invited me to Savage as well but I'm so allergic to schedules now. Back in the raiding days it was raid night and then when it wasn't raid night it was preparing for raid night by getting keys or gearing up, etc. I also got tired of never getting the chance to choose for myself what I was going to do that night. I spent all yesterday crafting on an alt because I wanted to see the changes to low level crafting with the skill revamp. It was quite fun. I couldn't do that if I had a previous commitment.

Also, to add to the all 80s thing, WoW, SE did just implement a reward in the amaro for having everything at 80. I have all 80s because I really wanted that mount, and have a handful that I'm proficient on. Not Savage-level optimized proficient, but I don't need to be to be a good partymate in PUG content.

[Penthea]

Game's community is not healthy. 14 is by far the most passive aggressive, boiling under the surface mmo community I've ever been apart of.

If you think this game has the most passive aggressive mmo player population then you have had a much easier time than you think. I wish I could say the same as you. I really do.

[Caurcas]

If you think this game has the most passive aggressive mmo player population then you have had a much easier time than you think. I wish I could say the same as you. I really do.

Deflection is not a winning strategy. Furthermore, go ahead make burying the animosity and resentment between to vastly different groups the norm as if it healthy. Also if I am being honest, I much prefer straight forward toxicity to passive aggressive toxicity. At least the straight forward kind isn't lying about what it is.