Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Theodric]

I'd also note that it is outright stated that Venat's group feared Zodiark's power. Which suggests that something may have gone awry based on that fear if it was imprinted onto Hydaelyn as well.

[thegreatonemal]

Right then. So their belief is that the world belongs to the new life. The question is why, which i’m hoping we get an answer to in 6.0.

It's simple, it was the life that was always here and shouldn't be sacrificed to save bring back all the people who died in an attempt to save everyone and everything else.

[_Koneko_]

division in the ancients was suppose to be rare according elidibus and always fleeting but not this time venat and the azem clearly felt that the convocation had lost their way I'm reminded of the timelords who started as a good and noble people who became twisted by desperation

sacrificing half your people to power a abomination like a primal is not the acts of a rational people the cycle of sacrifice will never end as we know the existence a primal will eventually drain the planet dry just by existing

[Lauront]

If a tempering did occur then that would’ve been Minfilia doing so, as she was by all means in control of her decisions.

I do not believe for a second he was tempered. Ardbert only relented after Minfilia explained that Hydaelyn knew of their plight. And even still, he only full acquiesced once his companions pointed out that they weren’t going to succeed at their original plan. The blue glow was there for longer than her talking and yet he was inches from cleaning her in two.

Not to mention none of this would make sense both thematically and in the story. A plot device like that would thoroughly undermine not just one but several characters arcs as well as a major part of the Shadowbringers story.

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered. Frankly, it is probably a red herring, as I don’t think tempering matters as much as some people think when it comes to motivation (depending on the Primal), but there is very little to suggest she couldn’t temper us in some form if she wanted to. Just claims that because it doesn’t match what happens to the followers of X primal under tempering, it can’t be the case. Not all too convincing, especially after 5.4 and 5.5.

The “ritual” was earlier established in Akadaemia Anyder with the summoning of Phoenix, which was the original inspiration for a soul based summoning. Given the Ancients penchant for sharing information among themselves (the ones who summoned Zodiark told them much) and the respect and sway Venat clearly had, it isn’t at all surprising they knew. Hell, the Ancients probably never conceived there’d be conflict in their ranks, so why bother being secretive?

While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation. The text supporting that is here:







I think it is safe to say that Theodric is on solid grounds to think such a concept, being researched in Akadaemia Anyder in the Words of Lahabrea and then potentially stored in Anamnesis Anyder (under the Bureau of the Architect’s oversight) would not be something that is common knowledge, particularly given its complexity and aetheric requirements. Supported by the below:

Ifrita. A manifestation of concentrated fire aether. I could see what Azem was planning: transform the volcano's aether into Ifrita, draw her away, and then destroy her elsewhere. This would safely disperse the excess. Of course, the plan required someone to procure the concept of Ifrita for Azem. But if that someone was not Lahabrea himself, who else could it be?

As everyone knew, concepts were stored in the Bureau of the Architect, and not all could be readily removed for personal use. The chief of the bureau, however, could grant access as he pleased.

To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before – see here:

[14:00] Emet-Selch : En tant que garde-fou de Zordiarche, Hydaelyn était dotée de capacités tout bonnement extraordinaires.
= “As Zodiark’s safeguard, Hydaelyn was endowed with simply extraordinary capabilities.”

[14:00] Emet-Selch : Des attaques qui, en plus de toucher l'enveloppe matérielle de l'adversaire, tranchaient jusqu'à son essence même... C'était du jamais vu.
= “Attacks that, in addition to touching the material envelope (body) of the opponent, cut to its very essence… It was never seen before.”

division in the ancients was suppose to be rare according elidibus and always fleeting but not this time venat and the azem clearly felt that the convocation had lost their way I'm reminded of the timelords who started as a good and noble people who became twisted by desperation

sacrificing half your people to power a abomination like a primal is not the acts of a rational people the cycle is sacrifice will never we know the existence a primal will eventually drain the planet dry just by existing

We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:



The world was dying and the extent of this is shown in the Amaurot instance. Said “abomination” delivered a restoration of the world, which even Venat’s group does not deny, even though they think that the order could not endure.
As an aside – why is it alright for another “abomination” to come out of the blue and shatter the world and all inside it, degrading their souls? I don’t have an answer as yet as to why they did it. I am sure there’s reasons as to why they thought it had to happen, and that they possibly didn’t understand how the power of enervation functioned in practice, but I will note the narrative I always see from certain quarters is quick to cast Zodiark as some “abomination” but never his counterpart. She is magically exempt from all the laws governing other primals, even sophisticated ones like Zodiark. Though I prefer to take an open-minded approach, in the sense that the writers can compose the story in any manner they please and we can but guess at where they’re going with it, I do find this rather amusing.

Currently we have a gap in understanding as to why her faction thought Zodiark was not a permanent solution, but Hythlodaeus mentions that her summoners were driven from a belief that the new life (only referred to as “freshly minted souls” in Ere our Curtain falls; FR version doesn't clarify it much – we don’t know much else about this “new life”) should inherit the world. Could it be because this new life lacked the same facility for creation magicks? A belief that the ancients had reached a stagnation point? A fear that power as great as Zodiark’s could result in trouble down the line? Something else? As it stands, the things they do not mention are the cause of the Final Days (elusive to all) or tempering. As a reminder of something, the sequence of events seems to be thus:

1. There is general disagreement amongst the populace about how to proceed in regards to restoration of the sacrificed ancients. Maybe because of their maturation cycles, given that they were virtually immortal, maybe because the new souls differed materially – e.g. less/not capable of using Creation magicks. No firm proof either way.
2. This also split the Convocation – see here from the French version:

Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”
Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”
Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

English for comparison:



This self-same person is who was at Zodiark’s foundation, and became Zodiark’s heart – a Primal imbued with the desire of salvation.

3. Elidibus emerges out of Zodiark. Sentiments and rationale reproduced below:



4. By the time Venat’s group summon him, they say very few support their side. We don’t know why. This is a change in the situation. I suspect what happened is Elidibus’s emergence from Zodiark served as a proof of concept for what many ancients had wanted to be done. The Convocation then felt it had a sufficient basis to enact this as its decision.





5. Azem did not respond to the repeated overtures of Venat’s group. We do not know why, but cannot rule out the possibility that they too did not consider her solution a particularly good one.

So based on this, we can conclude it was not just the Convocation pushing for this plan.

Although, as I said, the writers can do what they wish, I’d find it awfully strange if at this point they still try reduce Zodiark to some comic book baddy, or some tyrant who hungered for aether. Especially when we don’t know how they were powered (although here is a suggestion.) Perhaps something afflicted him, but even so I find the reaction of sundering the entire world disproportionate – but granted, possibly not intended. In my estimation, neither party in the conflict was wholly right, and they were both entrenched in their position, and yet neither Primal is evil nor unconditionally bad. I am hoping that, with Fandaniel's advent and potential backstory, that we will learn of a third party instigating the whole affair for its own benefit.

[Theodric]

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered. Frankly, it is probably a red herring, as I don’t think tempering matters as much as some people think when it comes to motivation (depending on the Primal), but there is very little to suggest she couldn’t temper us in some form if she wanted to. Just claims that because it doesn’t match what happens to the followers of X primal under tempering, it can’t be the case. Not all too convincing, especially after 5.4 and 5.5.



While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation. The text supporting that is here:







I think it is safe to say that Theodric is on solid grounds to think such a concept, being researched in Akadaemia Anyder in the Words of Lahabrea and then potentially stored in Anamnesis Anyder (under the Bureau of the Architect’s oversight) would not be something that is common knowledge, particularly given its complexity and aetheric requirements. Supported by the below:



To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before – see here:





We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:



The world was dying and the extent of this is shown in the Amaurot instance. Said “abomination” delivered a restoration of the world, which even Venat’s group does not deny, even though they think that the order could not endure.
As an aside – why is it alright for another “abomination” to come out of the blue and shatter the world and all inside it, degrading their souls? I don’t have an answer as yet as to why they did it. I am sure there’s reasons as to why they thought it had to happen, and that they possibly didn’t understand how the power of enervation functioned in practice, but I will note the narrative I always see from certain quarters is quick to cast Zodiark as some “abomination” but never his counterpart. She is magically exempt from all the laws governing other primals, even sophisticated ones like Zodiark. Though I prefer to take an open-minded approach, in the sense that the writers can compose the story in any manner they please and we can but guess at where they’re going with it, I do find this rather amusing.

Currently we have a gap in understanding as to why her faction thought Zodiark was not a permanent solution, but Hythlodaeus mentions that her summoners were driven from a belief that the new life (only referred to as “freshly minted souls” in Ere our Curtain falls; FR version doesn't clarify it much – we don’t know much else about this “new life”) should inherit the world. Could it be because this new life lacked the same facility for creation magicks? A belief that the ancients had reached a stagnation point? A fear that power as great as Zodiark’s could result in trouble down the line? Something else? As it stands, the things they do not mention are the cause of the Final Days (elusive to all) or tempering. As a reminder of something, the sequence of events seems to be thus:

1. There is general disagreement amongst the populace about how to proceed in regards to restoration of the sacrificed ancients. Maybe because of their maturation cycles, given that they were virtually immortal, maybe because the new souls differed materially – e.g. less/not capable of using Creation magicks. No firm proof either way.
2. This also split the Convocation – see here from the French version:


English for comparison:



This self-same person is who was at Zodiark’s foundation, and became Zodiark’s heart – a Primal imbued with the desire of salvation.

3. Elidibus emerges out of Zodiark. Sentiments and rationale reproduced below:



4. By the time Venat’s group summon him, they say very few support their side. We don’t know why. This is a change in the situation. I suspect what happened is Elidibus’s emergence from Zodiark served as a proof of concept for what many ancients had wanted to be done. The Convocation then felt it had a sufficient basis to enact this as its decision.





5. Azem did not respond to the repeated overtures of Venat’s group. We do not know why, but cannot rule out the possibility that they too did not consider her solution a particularly good one.

So based on this, we can conclude it was not just the Convocation pushing for this plan.

Although, as I said, the writers can do what they wish, I’d find it awfully strange if at this point they still try reduce Zodiark to some comic book baddy, or some tyrant who hungered for aether. Especially when we don’t know how they were powered (although here is a suggestion.) Perhaps something afflicted him, but even so I find the reaction of sundering the entire world disproportionate – but granted, possibly not intended. In my estimation, neither party in the conflict was wholly right, and they were both entrenched in their position, and yet neither Primal is evil nor unconditionally bad. I am hoping that, with Fandaniel's advent and potential backstory, that we will learn of a third party instigating the whole affair for its own benefit.

An excellent post and a well sourced one at that. I'm definitely bookmarking it for future reference!

[EaraGrace]

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered.

I never said it was impossible, just that Hydaelyn tempering Ardbert makes no sense and does not fit on either a contextual or metatextual level. His reactions, his actions, his responses, none of them fit any example of tempering that we’ve seen. And in the event he was tempered I fail to see why his companions, who were not interacted with by Minfilia directly, would be the ones arguing for Hydaelyns wants in that moment.

While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation.

An important point! However, I argue from our experience in Anyder that Venat holds no little amount of sway. While not a member of the Convocation she was able to convince a group to dissent and form an opposition faction, an unheard of occurrence. Exactly what place in the Ancients society she was in is unclear, but given her influence and her strength (as is remarked on in the archive), she may be up there in chain of command.

And even still, there’s one small fact we seem to be overlooking. The base of operations for the Light faction is deep in an actual archive of concepts. A repository for the Akadaemia.

URIANGER: That this facility shared intimate ties with the Akadaemia Anyder may readily be discerned from the common element in their names. Based on mine observations, 'tis like that the forms housed here were conveyed unto the Akadaemia only when required, and thence returned for safekeeping.

It seems logical that any who would have access to such a facility would either possess the knowledge of summoning itself, or the the means to obtain it. They’re sitting where such things are stored after all!

To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before

Enervation was indeed unique, yet doesn’t that just indicate that it’s likely the faction of Light derived it themselves?

We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:

Let’s be careful not to presume. As you point out later the wording is that the overtures were unanswered, not necessarily refused. Azems role seems to be the wildcard, and without clear evidence of what they were doing I would be skeptical of anyone claiming they chose a specific side, Light or Dark.

[TaleraRistain]

Given we just had an expansion that showed us you can't always trust the pretty ones, I'm not sure he's evil either.

Though they were both summoned by groups that didn't really give a fig about the world itself. The Convocation in general didn't interfere in the outside world and what was happening in other nations. Only Azem did. Whatever the Convocation decided to do is suspect on how good or evil it was.

I'm not convinced we aren't tempered since I think Azem had more to do with past events than we think. Would be convenient for Hydaelyn to temper someone who could be a threat to her.

[KizuyaKatogami]

yeaaaah I don't get the zodiark fanboys either.

I mean, let's be real for a moment. The ancients heard a scary sound and suddenly they couldn't even control their own power, and it led to their own downfall. Because they heard a scary sound. Remember that? I know the assumption is that it was a willful act by a malicious being, but we actually don't know that. It could be that the ancients, as "perfect" as they were, were incredibly unfit for the power they held and that they completely caused their own destruction even before zodiark became a thing. If the people themselves, so incapable of controlling their own emotions and the creation magicks that ran amok as a result, couldn't be trusted as they were then the sundering is not only logical but necessary.

Are you actually trying to justify the sundering when the devs themselves labeled it as a horrendous thing lol.

[Katie_Kitty]

Are you actually trying to justify the sundering when the devs themselves labeled it as a horrendous thing lol.

I guess you've never heard of a necessary evil.

Which is better, End Times 2.0 because they failed to actually fix the problem that caused the end to begin with, or a one-time sundering which then allows life to flourish for the next 10,000+ years?

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's simple, it was the life that was always here and shouldn't be sacrificed to save bring back all the people who died in an attempt to save everyone and everything else.

It depends, if that life was lower than them or lacked creation magicks then it would warrant them wanting to sacrifice them to bring back the ones who would last longer/were more capable of ensuring the star’s survival. We don’t know the specifics so it’s hard to speculate on.