Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[BlitzAceRush]

Perhaps it would be of benefit for some people to refresh themselves on the events of ARR, HW and SB? By no means was Elidibus simply standing around in the shadows during that period. He had numerous defining moments manipulating events in his favour, or attempting to. Indeed, he was directly responsible for bringing the Warriors of Darkness over to the Source. He also confronted Minfilia directly at one point and is directly responsible for gifting Nidhogg's eyes to Ilberd, which kicked off the renewed hostilities with Garlemald. In addition to that, he manipulated Varis and contributed to pushing away a chance to make peace between Garlemald and Eorzea as a consequence of his actions where the Populares were concerned.

...and all of that is with Elidibus being a character working behind the scenes by his very nature and only confronting the Warrior of Darkness as a last resort. Meanwhile, Zenos is built on the thrill of the fight and has...done very little outside of the occasional flashy fight with minimal consequences.

I am taking into account that he did indeed try to do things, and has had a hand in moving the plot which Zenos has also done, stopping Black rose, crippling then pretty much ending Garlemald, the issue being like Zenos it was few and far between and ultimately ended the same way, it also leans back to my point of him turning into another character, the great manipulator, working from behind the shadows, planner, has time on his side, given he won't die unlike us, last of the unsundered now, all hopes rest with him. What great plan will he unleash? What plot will he- Oh, he's just going to come to the first and fight us directly? The very thing that got his friends killed? Well, he's still got time, he's taken our mesure realized he can't beat us in a head to head contest, this is where the great manipulator will slip away and come up with- oh, no, he's already a primal, the thing we're really good at dealing with, but he's just going to become effectively an even stronger, bigger primal, this is obviously something we'll have no way of contending with, I think Zenos did something similar, but no, this will work.
Not really the actions of someone who does their best work from the shadows and manipulates, or someone who knows their death is the end of a 12000 year long quest, it wasn't even his last resort, he didn't have to kill us then and there, not given what his death could mean, he literally decided that even though direct battle wasn't his strength that he should wager it all on exactly that, it's almost like ShB Elidibus isn't like pre ShB Elidibus.

[BlitzAceRush]

Do you have a source on the two ending for 5.3? I can't seem to find anything.
Honestly I just find that, odd, weather it was about Graha or anything, with how far in advance they work and plan, I just don't know how they'd be able to do that, they said they had Endwalker's trailer mostly done by 5.3, had they done a second version without him in it? Were they also writing the story with and without him as well? That just doesn't seem remotely feasible or practical.

[MrThinker]

Do you have a source on the two ending for 5.3? I can't seem to find anything.
Honestly I just find that, odd, weather it was about Graha or anything, with how far in advance they work and plan, I just don't know how they'd be able to do that, they said they had Endwalker's trailer mostly done by 5.3, had they done a second version without him in it? Were they also writing the story with and without him as well? That just doesn't seem remotely feasible or practical.

I thought they meant the *storyboarding* was done by 5.3 and they would have started the production of the trailer, rather than having the full trailer completed. I mean the full trailer isn't complete until Soken finished the music, and we know he did not finish it by the time the first trailer came around.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Do you have a source on the two ending for 5.3? I can't seem to find anything.
Honestly I just find that, odd, weather it was about Graha or anything, with how far in advance they work and plan, I just don't know how they'd be able to do that, they said they had Endwalker's trailer mostly done by 5.3, had they done a second version without him in it? Were they also writing the story with and without him as well? That just doesn't seem remotely feasible or practical.

Had to google translate the interview since it was in japanese.

--You mentioned the story of Mr. Crystal, but how was your reaction?

Mr. Yoshida: There were two final proposals regarding the ending, and we had a lot of discussions.

--Is there a possibility that you will not return to the original world?

Mr. Yoshida: When there was a person named Crystal Prince, I had two ideas about what I wanted. In each case, it is not just that Crystal Duke dies, but how to catch the sleeping Gu Raha. Interpretation that my wish is to be done by Gu Raha, who is sleeping in the tower, so I should wake him up and continue my adventure with him as long as I no longer have to stay asleep. There is also ... After many discussions, in any case, I have no regrets about the current conclusion.

Tbh, it’s very obvious that 5.3 was changed/rushed. One of the most telling things is the whole plot line about the crystarium people wanting to be WoL. They spent a lot of 5.2 to set it up almost as if we were going to have to fight them in 5.3, but then at the start of 5.3 they just write it off in one random dialogue sentence of “oh they decided not to become WoL.” And then of course there’s Elidibus just absolutely feeling like a completely different character. They didn’t seem to even look back at ARR to see his goals and how even all the way back then he was already setting stuff up.

[GoldStarz]

Obviously I think it's fine for Zenos stans to like Zenos but I don't really get where people are coming from that "he didn't get the chance to shine." The guy was ostensibly the main antagonist of Stormblood and appeared in both sides of the story. The fact that he was overshadowed by Fordola and Yotsuyu isn't because he wasn't given any chances to stand out, it's because they're much stronger characters than him which made them completely overshadow the villain that was supposed to be the main threat. He's been around longer than almost any antagonist in the game, but probably has one of the weakest presences.

It's not like you can't do a lot with only a little amount of time either. I'm pretty sure someone already brought him up but at the end of the day Valens is just a much better executed version of Zenos' archetype: like Zenos he has absolutely no redeeming qualities, but his personality and actions make him way more hateable so that by the end of Werlyt you want soooooo bad to see this dude just get his teeth kicked in. Zenos actually does very few especially fucked up things on screen and despite his obsession with WoL, almost none of his actions are directly affecting towards WoL or his circle of friends (read: the main cast) to inspire any particular ire against him the way Valens does.

Don't get me wrong when Zenos inevitably bites it in Endwalker, I'll cheer. But it's not because I feel anything towards Zenos as a character; it's because I find Zenos as a narrative device to be incredibly obnoxious.

[Lauront]

Obviously I think it's fine for Zenos stans to like Zenos but I don't really get where people are coming from that "he didn't get the chance to shine." The guy was ostensibly the main antagonist of Stormblood and appeared in both sides of the story. The fact that he was overshadowed by Fordola and Yotsuyu isn't because he wasn't given any chances to stand out, it's because they're much stronger characters than him which made them completely overshadow the villain that was supposed to be the main threat. He's been around longer than almost any antagonist in the game, but probably has one of the weakest presences.

It's not like you can't do a lot with only a little amount of time either. I'm pretty sure someone already brought him up but at the end of the day Valens is just a much better executed version of Zenos' archetype: like Zenos he has absolutely no redeeming qualities, but his personality and actions make him way more hateable so that by the end of Werlyt you want soooooo bad to see this dude just get his teeth kicked in. Zenos actually does very few especially fucked up things on screen and despite his obsession with WoL, almost none of his actions are directly affecting towards WoL or his circle of friends (read: the main cast) to inspire any particular ire against him the way Valens does.

Don't get me wrong when Zenos inevitably bites it in Endwalker, I'll cheer. But it's not because I feel anything towards Zenos as a character; it's because I find Zenos as a narrative device to be incredibly obnoxious.

That sums up my thoughts on him. I enjoyed some scenes with him in Stormblood, and thought his final fight was great. I've not really enjoyed his role much unless we count Elidizenos, which I don't for such a purpose. Now I am just hoping it doesn't drag on for too long into 6.0.

[EaraGrace]

Tbh, it’s very obvious that 5.3 was changed/rushed. One of the most telling things is the whole plot line about the crystarium people wanting to be WoL. They spent a lot of 5.2 to set it up almost as if we were going to have to fight them in 5.3, but then at the start of 5.3 they just write it off in one random dialogue sentence of “oh they decided not to become WoL.” And then of course there’s Elidibus just absolutely feeling like a completely different character. They didn’t seem to even look back at ARR to see his goals and how even all the way back then he was already setting stuff up.

Perhaps I’m giving too much credit but I don’t think that really fits.

The interview, unless I’m misreading it, doesn’t really say these decisions were rushed. Those kind of discussions of are part of any long running story, and could have happened at any point in the development process, including long before 5.3 launched.

5.2 as well wasn’t hand waved away, many of those who wanted to be WoL did become ones after gaining the echo, only some stayed. And the whole reason Elidibus did what he did wasn’t to create an army, but whip people into a Warrior of Light frenzy and feed off that hope and reverence as quasi-primal, allowing him overcome the power difference that had developed post-shadowbringers.

Not too mention I felt they did a pretty good job justifying why Elidibus acted the way he was acting. His compulsion to act as a mediator for the convocation, coupled with an only vague recollection of his time before becoming Zodiarks core fits his actions in ARR, where he largely tried to mediate the two sides and act as ambassador while still ultimately sticking with the unsundered.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Perhaps I’m giving too much credit but I don’t think that really fits.

The interview, unless I’m misreading it, doesn’t really say these decisions were rushed. Those kind of discussions of are part of any long running story, and could have happened at any point in the development process, including long before 5.3 launched.

5.2 as well wasn’t hand waved away, many of those who wanted to be WoL did become ones after gaining the echo, only some stayed. And the whole reason Elidibus did what he did wasn’t to create an army, but whip people into a Warrior of Light frenzy and feed off that hope and reverence as quasi-primal, allowing him overcome the power difference that had developed post-shadowbringers.

Not too mention I felt they did a pretty good job justifying why Elidibus acted the way he was acting. His compulsion to act as a mediator for the convocation, coupled with an only vague recollection of his time before becoming Zodiarks core fits his actions in ARR, where he largely tried to mediate the two sides and act as ambassador while still ultimately sticking with the unsundered.

In regards to the 5.2 thing, that’s something i’m going to strongly disagree with. They give a heavy emphasis on the likes of Theyler and his friend and then they’re literally never heard from again. They build up the suspense of all these people getting the echo and then nothing comes from it. Not to mention the whole thing in 5.3 with the Heroes Gauntlet and somehow random people can take on shades of Warriors of Light? The memory thing is my issue. In ARR that wasn’t even a thing and quite the opposite he actually recollected more than others as stated by most of the sundered. He also had the goal of balance and also was tied to many plot threads like forging the final key, and making sure Minfilia wasn’t harmed. None of these things were even touched on and this character from 2.x was killed off within 2 patches.Not to mention him all of a sudden going from the mysterious, calculating unsundered to all of a sudden going on the frontlines and facing the WoL head on. Its a complete 180. Yet we still have Zenos hanging around for 3 expansions. It seems like Emet was given Elidibus’ role and they just had absolutely no idea what to do with Elidibus, and it didn’t help that the community just loved Graha so much they felt the need to change endings and give him insane plot armor just to keep him alive.

[KageTokage]

I am a touch curious as to exactly how much presence he's going to have in 6.0.

If he's just going to sit around in Garlemald/on the moon and wait for us to come to him, he's not going to have much time for any further development save for the occasional side scene, but he only has Fandaniel to boss around this time, as opposed an entire legion and the other notable characters affiliated with it.

Then again, he doesn't necessarily need more development. The only thing that's really up in the air about him is why he has memories of the Final Days, but I doubt it's going to have much sway in how things end up playing out personally.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

I do hope that Zenos takes an extremely active role in the 6.0 story line but in a sort of specific way

If we take some implications from the trailer, Endwalker would be on a much larger scale of us traversing all around the world. With the scions spread across the globe and the Warrior of Light not acting as a barrier to protect them I would find it very interesting if they decided to bring back some of the fear Zenos garnered in Stormblood. I would love it if Zenos went back to the whole "hunt" aspect of his character and essentially played the role of a boogieman, tracking down the scions or other potential allies and putting them out of commission one by one to really push the story to its limits.

This would inevitably lead to cool character moments/fights with Zenos and the scions and I would be far from upset if we got to see a certain rematch.

Estinien and Zenos have been seconds away from each other since Stormblood
- Estinien arrives after Zenos' defeat at the royal menagerie
- Estinien saves the WoL before Zenos' makes it to the battlefield at Ghimlyt Dark
- Zenos makes it to the throne room before Estinien and Gaius

When they finally do clash they are both sandbagging each other. Zenos not unleashing his full power and Estinien not entering his Nidhogg trance. What better way to showcase his new found Ascian powers and really establish him as a threat than for him finally tango with one of the strongest allies we have. Double points if its a 2v1 and he comes on top against Vrtra and Estinien