Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Katie_Kitty]

Zenos, Emet-Selc, Elidibus and Lahabrea will clearly become our BFF's in this expansion and join our trust system and then we'll go on a road trip to beat up the source of the sound

Not lahabrea, he's too busy conquering the afterlife and we're gonna have to go down there to beat him up. again

[BlitzAceRush]

He’s literally had 3 expansions now. He had sb to be a good villain. He had shb to be a good villain.Instead he’s done nothing but rid of things more interesting than him (Garlemald and Varis). Elidibus got two patches while Zenos gets 3 expansions. Yet he still just doesn’t feel like a good villain. Emet had one expansion and was able to shine amazingly well.

Correction: Zenos has had one Expansion as the man villain and it was Stormblood, arguably the most mismanaged expansion when it came to focus, while I enjoyed the story it tried to tell it was all over the place and spread itself very thin, in the end Frodola and Yotsuyu end up getting far more screen time and development than the "lead" villain, contrast to Emet in Shadowbringers who was the star and took the lion-share of the screen and development space, as you'd expect for the main villain. Since then Zenos has been relegated to the "Meanwhile in" segments, that at best last 3 minutes at the end of each patch, he feels like he's been around at lot because of that, but the time he's actually be able to do anything is very minor, and even in these tiny scenes, he's either having to set up other events, or share them, or even play second fiddle to characters like Gaius or Fandaniel.
Even going into Endwalker they've said he and Fandaniel are NOT the big bads or the end bosses, so he's not the main villain here, it seems more he's now in the Frodola position, perhaps that'll mean he actually gets some form of traction this time.

While he's been in the background for a long time (even in the expansion he was supposed to be the main villain of) he's not been allowed to or been given anything major to really do, he's pretty much just been told to stand around and look pretty, Emet would have fared just as poorly with the handling Zenos has received or lack thereof.
All that said I do actually like what little we've seen of him, here's hoping the fact they've kept him around for so long means they will eventually do something with him.

[Katie_Kitty]

Emet would have fared just as poorly with the handling Zenos has received or lack thereof.
.

In alternate universe Eorzea, all of emet's sassy quips have been transformed into "meanwhile..." segments where he sits broodingly on his throne in the tempest and complains that the WoL is killing his lightwardens.

[Kesey]

Correction: Zenos has had one Expansion as the man villain and it was Stormblood, arguably the most mismanaged expansion when it came to focus, while I enjoyed the story it tried to tell it was all over the place and spread itself very thin, in the end Frodola and Yotsuyu end up getting far more screen time and development than the "lead" villain, contrast to Emet in Shadowbringers who was the star and took the lion-share of the screen and development space, as you'd expect for the main villain. Since then Zenos has been relegated to the "Meanwhile in" segments, that at best last 3 minutes at the end of each patch, he feels like he's been around at lot because of that, but the time he's actually be able to do anything is very minor, and even in these tiny scenes, he's either having to set up other events, or share them, or even play second fiddle to characters like Gaius or Fandaniel.
Even going into Endwalker they've said he and Fandaniel are NOT the big bads or the end bosses, so he's not the main villain here, it seems more he's now in the Frodola position, perhaps that'll mean he actually gets some form of traction this time.

While he's been in the background for a long time (even in the expansion he was supposed to be the main villain of) he's not been allowed to or been given anything major to really do, he's pretty much just been told to stand around and look pretty, Emet would have fared just as poorly with the handling Zenos has received or lack thereof.
All that said I do actually like what little we've seen of him, here's hoping the fact they've kept him around for so long means they will eventually do something with him.

It's starting to feel like Zenos was always meant for the Endwalker expansion. Although I agree he has been under used and under developed in the previous two expansions, I think putting the most powerful resonant (echo) user in the hands of an Ascian plot was always the true trajectory. We've watched every other villain be manipulated by Ascians and Zenos has had the pass in this vein for two expansions.

[BlitzAceRush]

It's starting to feel like Zenos was always meant for the Endwalker expansion. Although I agree he has been under used and under developed in the previous two expansions, I think putting the most powerful resonant (echo) user in the hands of an Ascian plot was always the true trajectory. We've watched every other villain be manipulated by Ascians and Zenos has had the pass in this vein for two expansions.

Agreed, though I feel again from what little we've been shown of him that he's smarter than that, yes he's fine with playing along/being used if it gets him what he wants, I think he's fully aware that Fandaniel's "true" plan could very easily either spring during his fight with us, or ruin it in some way and he's ready for that eventuality or expects it and is poised to counter it. That could even be how we end up working together, temporary or no, if those speculations end up panning out.

I'm honestly not really sure what's going to happen with them, they keep saying it's not going to be what we expect, I actually don't think Fandaniel is the wild card crazy guy with a plan, I think it's an act within an act, I also think the same of Zenos, he's coming across very single minded but his plan to "fight" us just has far too many moving parts, he got very annoyed when Fandaniel said he might have hurt us, yet we're on the damn moon and he's still just waiting, the world is literally burning and he's still waiting, Fandaniel's even questioning, if we'll "play our part" but still Zenos waits. I'm sure he has faith we won't bite it to any of the many world ending threats now on the loose, but at this point it's more likely the world itself will end before we bother to show up, yet still Zenos waits, I have no doubt he wants to fight us, but I get the feeling there's something else, I almost wouldn't be surprised if when Endwalker comes out we learn that by the time we're on the Moon and we get to the Scene with Zenos looking up, we've already had our "transcended" moment and it turns out there's something more.

[Cilia]

Even going into Endwalker they've said [Zenos] and Fandaniel are NOT the big bads or the end bosses, so he's not the main villain here, it seems more he's now in the Frodola position, perhaps that'll mean he actually gets some form of traction this time.

Have they said Zenos won't be the final boss? I'm not saying I disagree that's what's going to happen (rather I see him being relegated to a post-final boss where we're both exhausted and just slugging it out), but I've only seen confirmation Danny Boy won't be the final boss and no confirmation they aren't the main antagonists.

I agree otherwise; Zenos hasn't had a great deal of screen time to leave much of an impression. Further it takes a lot of digging and empathizing with a monster of a man to really understand him, and most people don't seem to be willing to do that. The abyss gazes back, after all.

[Theodric]

We've fought Zenos multiple times now. I'd say he's had ample time in the spotlight. For comparison, we've fought most other antagonists and villains only once but that didn't stop them from being written in such a way as to leave a lasting impact and impression.

Furthermore, didn't Yoshi-P state outright that Zenos was designed to be a character lacking in sympathetic qualities? He isn't a particularly deep character - not without a lot of stretching and risk of head-canon being mistaken for canon.

Although I prefer antagonists to villains, there's still some villains out there that I quite like. In those cases, though, they did more and didn't just spend most of their precious screen time sitting around complaining that they were 'bored'. We've seen Zenos engage in cruel acts to foster hatred in his opponents to get a challenge. It's weird to me that he mysteriously doesn't do that very same thing by maybe offing someone close to the Warrior of Darkness. So, to me, he just comes across as little more than a convenient plot device.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Correction: Zenos has had one Expansion as the man villain and it was Stormblood, arguably the most mismanaged expansion when it came to focus, while I enjoyed the story it tried to tell it was all over the place and spread itself very thin, in the end Frodola and Yotsuyu end up getting far more screen time and development than the "lead" villain, contrast to Emet in Shadowbringers who was the star and took the lion-share of the screen and development space, as you'd expect for the main villain. Since then Zenos has been relegated to the "Meanwhile in" segments, that at best last 3 minutes at the end of each patch, he feels like he's been around at lot because of that, but the time he's actually be able to do anything is very minor, and even in these tiny scenes, he's either having to set up other events, or share them, or even play second fiddle to characters like Gaius or Fandaniel.
Even going into Endwalker they've said he and Fandaniel are NOT the big bads or the end bosses, so he's not the main villain here, it seems more he's now in the Frodola position, perhaps that'll mean he actually gets some form of traction this time.

While he's been in the background for a long time (even in the expansion he was supposed to be the main villain of) he's not been allowed to or been given anything major to really do, he's pretty much just been told to stand around and look pretty, Emet would have fared just as poorly with the handling Zenos has received or lack thereof.
All that said I do actually like what little we've seen of him, here's hoping the fact they've kept him around for so long means they will eventually do something with him.

Yet Elidibus had wayyyy less screen time than him and still managed to be a better character so... that really just seems like a cop out excuse for a badly designed character. Even Valens who had one cutscene per patch was able to be more entertaining and accomplish more victories over the protags than Zenos.

[BlitzAceRush]

Yet Elidibus had wayyyy less screen time than him and still managed to be a better character so... that really just seems like a cop out excuse for a badly designed character. Even Valens who had one cutscene per patch was able to be more entertaining and accomplish more victories over the protags than Zenos.

My whole post agrees with you, I just disagree with the reason, Zenos simply hasn't been given the lead, all he's been given is "Set up the stage and work with this person and stand/sit in the back while this guy speaks." That was my whole point, he's been relegated to doing nothing pretty much his whole run. Any character handled like that would be terrible, when he DOES get to do something, I like what I've seen but it's so rare, she said it in jest, but Katie_Kitty's joke is on point, if all Emet did every time we beat a Warden was brood in a chair on his own for a few moments, he wouldn't be the lorded villain everyone loves, he is, because he was utilized.

To Theodric's point yes, we fought him 3 times during Stormblood but as with a lot during that expansion it wasn't really executed very well, first time wasn't even about us, second time we attacked him and it ended about the same and he still wasn't really paying much attention to us, the third time was really the only time you could really call it a fight and it was also the only time we had proper dialogue and some kind of progression of his development and our growth with him, it was also collectively the most we'd spoken and would speak the whole run, which goes back to the problems Stormblood had, we literally didn't interact with our primary antagonist at all, they made it a personal story about him wanting a good fight but then never really had him realize we could give it to him until the last 5 minutes of run time.

There was no build up, they just did nothing with him, you could have removed him from the story and little would have changed, Fordola and Yotsuyu felt like the primary villains of the expansion it just felt like they didn't know what they wanted to do with Zenos, like they had the idea for him, but no clue where he should fit into this particular part of the narrative, though wonky as it was, he was part of the story and has lingered in the background since, honestly he feels more at home where he is now, it's a shame in how he got there though.

[BlitzAceRush]

Have they said Zenos won't be the final boss? I'm not saying I disagree that's what's going to happen (rather I see him being relegated to a post-final boss where we're both exhausted and just slugging it out), but I've only seen confirmation Danny Boy won't be the final boss and no confirmation they aren't the main antagonists.

I agree otherwise; Zenos hasn't had a great deal of screen time to leave much of an impression. Further it takes a lot of digging and empathizing with a monster of a man to really understand him, and most people don't seem to be willing to do that. The abyss gazes back, after all.

I went back to check and it was just Fandaniel, I missed the LL after and just read a summary that said both of them, but Zenos wasn't mentioned so it is possible he could be, though given what 6.0 is ending and all it's likely to cover, outside of the obvious "He just eats Zodiark and then we have to kill him" I'm not sure how he'd swing being the fight that ends this Saga, though I like the idea of us having some kind of slug feast with him after the fact, that sounds very Zenos.
They could be the main antags, but given the "he has a very complex secret" for Danny and Zenos's plan being very simple yet his method making little sense, I get the feeling there's a gotcha moment, Zenos might even be in on it and it just raises the stakes so he's all for it, though I get the sense it might not work out for either of them.

With Yoshi and co constantly telling us "Things aren't as they seem. and it's not as we think" I don't see it going down as just End days, and death for Danny and Transcended moment and death for Zenos.