Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[linayar]

I'd say the majority of players in this game are underperforming on the regular. It's just that the majority of content, until you get to extremes or high end duties, can be completed anyway, for the most part. Mechanics that require some actual thinking are usually where you find the most party wipes.

"majority of players...underperforming on the regular"

"majority of content...can be completed anyway"

To me, when you compare and contrast these two statements, it just becomes a meaningless metric if we want to insist on using "underperforming" in this context.

[SturmChurro]

"majority of players...underperforming on the regular"

"majority of content...can be completed anyway"

To me, when you compare and contrast these two statements, it just becomes a meaningless metric if we want to insist on using "underperforming" in this context.

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset more properly - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

[linayar]

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

[SturmChurro]

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

[linayar]

I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

[SturmChurro]

"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

[linayar]

The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

Hey, I said earlier that people should encourage others to do better, and one response that I got is that they'd rather kick if other players aren't already ready to be good when entering the duty.

So, yeah, maybe the community is to blame, but like you said, people can be carried through content, so that is where the game decides the minimum performance the party needs.

On more difficult content where the group will fail without better performance, that's where the community needs to help each other if they want to improve the overall experience of pugging. Or stick to whatever they're doing now and just let everything stays the same.

[Awha]

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

It depends on the person, sure the game may not reward you but it is a team game people should respect the time of others in the group by having a basic understand how to play their role. I have been in group where as a tank I have d/out damaged a SAM. Sure we cleared the content but objectively they failed their role as a damage dealer. Just like if a tank cannot hold aggro or a healer that does heal objectively fails at their role.

Or are we going to say that irrelevant cause they content was cleared? Also I have cleared content with tanks that refuse to hold aggro is it really safe to say they were competent players / did not under perform.

[LianaThorne]

Here's how I look at it: I don't think lazy play should be considered the norm but at the same time, it kind of should be recognized that there are many different types of people that play MMOs. Some people play it strictly as a way to have fun and they personally don't care about their DPS and others who tryhard in every dungeon and care about their output. Then there's also people in the middle who like to know what they're doing but aren't going to go full tryhard either. That's just how it is in any game community where there is content to cater to every playstyle: from end-game raiding to gardening and decorating.

I think that those who are super particular about the environment they want to play in should keep in mind that unless YOU personally create the environment that you want (whether by PFs, going with people you know or kicking mid-dungeon...which I don't agree with unless the person is griefing because new people exist and need to experience the content to progress) that you will ultimately deal with people of all playstyles in DF. Square also isn't going to lock out new players from old because:

1. How will they even learn or find motivation to improve if they can't complete content with only being matched with inexperienced players?

2. It's a toxic mentality.

I understand that it would be convenient to have every DF go super smoothly with only the best of the best in your party, but this game isn't meant for only the best of the best and definitely doesn't cater to only the best of the best. I think those who feel entitled to elite gameplay due to experience or skill should keep that in mind.

[Doozer]

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset more properly - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

Except whether you were asleep at the wheel the whole time or going full Sweaty, the reward is still the same: you completed the duty, maybe got loot, some tomes, etc.

You can rant and rave about "performing well" in a dungeon or something all you want, but past a certain point it's just wasted energy. Why tire out my already crappy joints just so I can "perform well"? It doesn't even mean you'll get more commendations. You don't need to play at Savage/Ultimate level in standard content. You can, but you don't need to, most people don't expect you to, and it has very little impact.

You should be more worked up about people getting hard carried through Ultimate and waving around weapons and titles, but for some reason you seem more interested in 'casual' content performance. Hm.