Can we get challenging 4-man content?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The problem with 4 man VS 8, is a death is that much more punishing.

To put it on the same level of savage, would actually make it more difficult.

[Seraphor]

Rathalos and the Deep Dungeons are the obvious ones but I'd love to see more stuff like them.
Memoria Misery EX was an awful experience compared to Rathalos EX, so I really hope they go back to that for the 'extra' EX trial in Endwalker.
We lost a DD in ShB so I hope they bring back a DD in Endwalker. I wouldn't mind if it was a little more limited in scope in exchange for a bigger challenge either.

[Awha]

Mythic + content please.

[Raikai]

Yeah, Rathalos... I mean 4-mans more more like the challenge in the whole package that is often displayed in dungeons: trash and boss. (I wish exploration in dungeons were less linear tho, but that's another subject)

Deep dungeons are basically the only saving grace for 4 people, I'll admit that but at the same time, I'm kind of sick of running them because they are very repetitive, and mostly important, at least to my experience trying to get both FC and non FC people to run them, the nature of deep dungeons advanced floors require more like a static group of people (to progress to the end in different sessions), rather than an impromptu group of people interested in running something short/medium, but challenging.

They are an option, of course. I'm sick of both PotD and HoH, tho, but I'm pretty sure if ShB had a deep dungeon, it would probably satisfy at least some of my immediate needs. Another reason is that in PotD and HoH you play under level 80, and for some jobs it's quite a miserable experience.

[Raikai]

The problem with 4 man VS 8, is a death is that much more punishing.

To put it on the same level of savage, would actually make it more difficult.

I wouldn't mind the challenge, to be honest. If you're playing with an organized group, coul still bring a SMN or RDM as a dpser for the extra rez.

[strawberrycake]

The problem with 4 man VS 8, is a death is that much more punishing.

To put it on the same level of savage, would actually make it more difficult.

Isn't that the fun part?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Isn't that the fun part?

Depends on your point of view. If it pushes people to want only casters with the rez ability, then that makes it less fun for melee players.

If it's too forgiving where deaths don't really matter, then in that case, raise utility is king.

If deaths do matter, then you basically have to play perfect, since a death with only 4 players drops your overall dps a lot more than with 8.

[strawberrycake]

Depends on your point of view. If it pushes people to want only casters with the rez ability, then that makes it less fun for melee players.

If it's too forgiving where deaths don't really matter, then in that case, raise utility is king.

If deaths do matter, then you basically have to play perfect, since a death with only 4 players drops your overall dps a lot more than with 8.

Thats fine imo either way, being careful isn;t the worst and if RDM and SMN become too domanant, people can make their own groups that are focused on that. a lot of people forget they don't have to follow what the masses do with group comps.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Thats fine imo either way, being careful isn;t the worst and if RDM and SMN become too domanant, people can make their own groups that are focused on that. a lot of people forget they don't have to follow what the masses do with group comps.

The problem is, if it's that way, the fights are too easy. That means you get no meaningful rewards.

They mentioned this is why they haven't done hard 4 man content in the past, it's much harder to balance.

I like 4 man content, but I just don't ever see it being on the same level as savage in terms of difficulty or reward.

All you have to look at is potd, where a death at a bad time in there can kill a week's worth of work.

It really sours the experience.

[strawberrycake]

The problem is, if it's that way, the fights are too easy. That means you get no meaningful rewards.

They mentioned this is why they haven't done hard 4 man content in the past, it's much harder to balance.

I'm not denying that it would end up too easy, and that its hard to balance, but IF you wanna do it, there nothing forcing the general players to use a caster. In WoW, the place where this idea usually comes from its rather often even with higher mythic keys that people go on whats fun, over whats *optimal* and skill usually trumps whats optimal.

So while being hard to balance, they also have to account for player skill, and if there would be multiple lvls to it, everyone can stop at the lvl they feel comfortable with, thus putting more agency into the players hands. It would scale by X amount every tier you go up and when you reach your limit you know not to go past it.