I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[Stanelis]

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work?

The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.



The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

[Stanelis]

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

What you re pointing out is only an issue because all bosses are virtually identical in their design in FFXIV (and is already seen at endgame in shadowbringer). If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

[Brightamethyst]

If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

Which comes with its own set of issues. Why invite a SAM to a DRG fight? Why invite a BRD to a RDM fight?

[Artemiz]

What you re pointing out is only an issue because all bosses are virtually identical in their design in FFXIV (and is already seen at endgame in shadowbringer). If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

When that happens we just get fights were certain jobs aren't welcome, we've been here before, many many times. SE's philosophy is to make sure every job can do every fight, probably because 75 FFXI was such an utter mess in this regard. It brings us back to the original post, it's pitched as balance vs sub jobs. Having played a game with sub jobs for over a decade I'd chose balance, because choice is but an illusion anyway with sub jobs.

[Dzian]

Let's not even talk about the idea that some unironically tell themselves they are "experts" in a VIDEO GAME of all things lmao

Whats wrong with that? You can be an expert at video games. Hell there's literally a billion dollar industry in e-sports which is full of expert gamers. and it doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.
Although I probably wouldnt last 5 minutes today I have trophies from national counterstrike tournaments that I did in my younger days (2002-2003) So it wouldn't be innacurate to say I iwas considered an expert player.

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

There is ZERO gatekeeping in this game. from a player perspective at least. Every piece of content is accessible to every single player. at no point do you ever see anyone turn around and say nope! sorry you are not allowed to do this content.. The only gatekeeper in this game is yourself.

If a bunch of top players want to farm a piece of content and put a party finder together They can set whatever requirements they liike. If they're going to be grinding the same encounter for hours it's not toxic or elitist or anything else if they want the runs to go fast and smoothly. Especially if in extreme circumstances where you need 99 primal totems for a mount...

But the important thing here is that even if that persons party finder inflates and sets the item level to one much higher than the content requires and maybe even higher than your best geared job.. That's still not gatekeeping.. You can still go and do that content, just find a party you are eligable to join or even make your own... No one is stopping you from doing that content but yourself.

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

Yes this is a video game but there's typically to types of gamers. those that see video games as a supplement to life and enjoy challenges and engaging gameplay. and those who see video games as escapism.

the frist group of people don't need video games to get a sense of self worth. more often than not they already have that. they play video games to push themselves even further and accomplish new goals or the endless strive for personal growth and development and games are just one of many places where they find it.

the second group of people does however tend to use video games to feel some sense of self esteem.. often because they fail at life, cant hold a relationship or a job or anyone of a million reasons and the only sense of self worth they get is getting a shiny reward ina video game. which is why they cry when a shiny reward is too hard for them to get. if someone else hasa shiny they dont they feel inferior and then demand the same shinys becuase it's just a game and they pay the same sub..

[linayar]

those that see video games as a supplement to life and enjoy challenges and engaging gameplay.

...

the frist group of people don't need video games to get a sense of self worth. more often than not they already have that. they play video games to push themselves even further and accomplish new goals or the endless strive for personal growth and development and games are just one of many places where they find it.

Many people who want challenge also want more than simply being challenged. They want validation for overcoming that challenge, otherwise, they wouldn't care if other people are able to get the same reward via other things (like microtransaction or alternative easier content).

Overcoming challenge as its own reward applies to fewer number of people.

At the end of the day, if you want to tie video game with your sense of self-worth, then you'll do it regardless of whether you play for the challenge or for escapism or for something else. It's not exclusive to one group or another.

[LittleImp]

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

And yet, you're hyper-fixated emotionally on the way that other players choose to define player value, to a degree that I think most people would readily call unhealthy. Talk about obsessed with self-worth; Your entire identity seems to revolve around this singular issue, including even your lodestone profile. It's genuinely no wonder that you have difficulty finding 'likeminded' people to play with in-game; Even people sympathetic to your point of view probably find your degree of obsession disturbing and unnerving.

Deriving self-worth from a video game is extremely important to you, that's why you spend nearly every single day coming here and spamming paragraphs about your grievances with the ways other players define value in this game. Simply put, if it honestly didn't matter, you wouldn't be melting down over it daily.

[Dzian]

Many people who want challenge also want more than simply being challenged. They want validation for overcoming that challenge, otherwise, they wouldn't care if other people are able to get the same reward via other things (like microtransaction or alternative easier content).

Overcoming challenge as its own reward applies to fewer number of people.

At the end of the day, if you want to tie video game with your sense of self-worth, then you'll do it regardless of whether you play for the challenge or for escapism or for something else. It's not exclusive to one group or another.

That goes into the realm of motivation and intrinsic vs extrinsic... Whether you do the challenge for the challenge its self. (Intrinsic) or for the rewards at the end (extrinsic) or even a cmbination of both. it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things. both forms of motivation are perfectly fine.

Many players don't care for what other people have. What they care about is what a reward or trophy represents or signifies. i.e the challenge that was overcome to earn it..

Many wouldn't care less if literally 100% of players had the same reward IF they beat the same challenge to get it..

It's like the Olympics. A gold medal should be earnt by winning... If they started handing them out to everyone just for turning up then a gold medal essentially becomes meaningless.
That's essentially what they do with in game rewards. Just dish em out to everyone and destroy everything they represent and signify.

It's not about how many people have x it's about what x represents to many people.. Just take a look back at the white ravens fiasco and the uproar that caused. Totally destroying what an item represents is bad.

And back then many people would have been happy if the items being dished out freely were simply called replicas.. as the original items would have maintained there meaning.. the difference is small but still important to a lot of people.

[TarynH]

In the golden days of FFXI, while you could sub whatever you wanted, there were a specific short list of sub jobs that were considered "acceptable" or "effective" and if your search info listed you as a subjob that didn't fall into the "effective" subjob list for your main job, you were asked to change or not invited at all.

This right here. Probably the main reason they don't do it, is because they want content accessible by everyone, and nobody left out because they don't have X job/ability. Which I agree with. I like being able to get on any job and enjoy content, without being told I need to change something.

I still remember the first time I installed FFXI. I sat down and read the book that came with it, as well as the infamous Brady Guide that was wrong on just about everything. You know, the one that told you WAR/WHM will get your ready for PLD.

Well as I sat there and watched thousands of files get checked, disconnected, then thousands of files get checked, then disconnected... well you get the point. As I sat there and watched that, I thought how cool it would be to start as RDM. Because it could imbue its sword with elemental damage. Then later I could switch to RNG/RDM and have elemental-imbued arrows! I'd be this spell-slinging elemental RNG!

Yeah... that didn't work. I found out rather quickly that RDM was "better with a staff," and should be used mainly as a backup healer (later support). I could MB off of the others in a group, but I was told to stand back and help cure. Or I could prepare for my life as a RNG, and go pull monsters back to the group with Dia! How... special I felt.

Also, RDM was deemed worthless as a subjob as RNG for several reasons. My dream of elemental arrows was quickly shattered when I tried using a bow on RDM. So I had to go back and find some other subjob, which inevitably ended up as NIN. Which I absolutely hated leveling. Mainly because it was considered a tank by then, and I didn't like tanking on FFXI. The community didn't allow you to level NIN as a shuriken-slinging, ninjutsu-casting DD either. Even if you had the Gil to support that lifestyle.

Then there was the time I decided to take RDM/NIN to an experience party. The complaining didn't stop during that one. Despite the fact I was keeping everyone Refreshed, dealing damage/debuffing, and even backup healing, it was still not acceptable. One person in the party simply couldn't handle it. How could a RDM be there in ACC gear tearing into things with their two swords? It was blasphemy! They kept whining for me to change to /WHM and staff. So I could stand in the back, cast fewer spells, and do less things for... better support?

I honestly think a lot of FFXI was "I had to do it that way, so you have to as well!" Nobody wanted to innovate. Nobody had the time/patience to try it another way. Once a guide came out for something, that was the way to do it. They were scared of jobs like PUP and BLU. Even BST at one point in time. I remember having a hard time leveling COR at points, because people were too scared of the randomness, and preferred the solid buffs BRD gave them.

These are just my own FFXI experiences, without the nostalgia glasses. Subjobs sound fun and unique in theory. However, the community (or game) dictates which ones are viable options, and you're limited to best-in-slot mandates regardless. It's a false sense of "creativity and self expression."