I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[Brightamethyst]

Those "non-meta" builds were just as powerful in the hands of someone who pushed them to their full potential. But people couldn't get out of the mindset of the "right" builds so they harassed or stigmatized anyone who went outside of that mentality. We saw the same thing here in XIV when we had cross-classes. But a big fault there was game design that let any choice be weaker than another. Of course that's a really complicated situation to balance, so I can see why they simplified and streamlined.

What are you talking about? Cross-class skills never worked that way. I can't think of even a single example of a non-meta cross-class skill that might have actually been worth setting. Hell, some of the standard cross-class skills weren't even worth setting except that there were literally no better options (e.g. literally everything besides Raging Strikes and Swiftcast on SMN.)

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

What are you talking about? Cross-class skills never worked that way. I can't think of even a single example of a non-meta cross-class skill that might have actually been worth setting. Hell, some of the standard cross-class skills weren't even worth setting except that there were literally no better options (e.g. literally everything besides Raging Strikes and Swiftcast on SMN.)

Pretty much.

Being able to use the 2nd gcd of Mar on pld was super useful in many instances.... Not....

[SilverObi]

I will chime in that 2.0 mnk could offtank in a pinch in dungeons and some early CT with Fists of Earth, Featherfoot, Bloodbath, and Second Wind while also slowing down the mob with Haymakers from dodging. That felt good and fun. Did it make mnk a viable tank? Of course it didn't but having those abilities be viable let mnk do something it definitely cannot do now.

[FawkesWyznfarr]

I will chime in that 2.0 mnk could offtank in a pinch in dungeons and some early CT with Fists of Earth, Featherfoot, Bloodbath, and Second Wind while also slowing down the mob with Haymakers from dodging. That felt good and fun. Did it make mnk a viable tank? Of course it didn't but having those abilities be viable let mnk do something it definitely cannot do now.

That's the one thing this game is missing, fun. If you wanna stack a team that uses nothing but fire and piercing damage then go for it. Or maybe you wanna do some meme bs like all dps with dodge focus.

[Ralph2449]

I do love how you completely disregard the incredibly selfish mindset this encourages. Thirty players can play however they want, even if it's entirely detrimental because they have little idea how their class functions, so long as ten people are both good and willing to carry said players through it. In other words, good players aren't allowed to have standards of their own and should they opt to enforce standards in their own parties, they're toxic and EEEEVILLL. But everyone else benefiting from their effort while contributing little of their own aren't toxic at all. They're just "having fun."

Gotta love that double standard.

Ah and of course someone defends the ridiculous standards elitists put no matter how easy the content is, you can be certain these people would put standards of praetorium if you couldnt do it via DF and was forced to use PF because "omg you are wasting our time if you dont have max ilvl and know how to play your class perfectl."

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

I even gave you specific numbers to show your ridiculous the elitist requirements always become:
WoW classic raid bosses have barely 1-2 mechanics and the actual DPS required for all people is so low, let's say 20 that can be achieved by spamming one button and having 2 second delay beween each cast. (Though in Classic's defense most """rotations""" are spamming one spell sometimes at different ranks and wand spam lmao)

The """dps check""" is so low that even if those 40 people do 20 dps from the example i gave above they would still get it, now theoretically some of those specs might be able to do 100 DPS so elitist tryhards will of course go around demanding only specs and builds and players that do that 98+ DPS because if the encounter doesnt end in a few seconds you are """""wasting time"""" for not having the RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

[SenorPatty]

Ah and of course someone defends the ridiculous standards elitists put no matter how easy the content is, you can be certain these people would put standards of praetorium if you couldnt do it via DF and was forced to use PF because "omg you are wasting our time if you dont have max ilvl and know how to play your class perfectl."

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

I even gave you specific numbers to show your ridiculous the elitist requirements always become:
WoW classic raid bosses have barely 1-2 mechanics and the actual DPS required for all people is so low, let's say 20 that can be achieved by spamming one button and having 2 second delay beween each cast. (Though in Classic's defense most """rotations""" are spamming one spell sometimes at different ranks and wand spam lmao)

The """dps check""" is so low that even if those 40 people do 20 dps from the example i gave above they would still get it, now theoretically some of those specs might be able to do 100 DPS so elitist tryhards will of course go around demanding only specs and builds and players that do that 98+ DPS because if the encounter doesnt end in a few seconds you are """""wasting time"""" for not having the RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

...Who hurt you?

[linayar]

once you see a full pattern that boss becomes a joke after the first time lol

That's not my experience unless the group I'm in is so overpowered that we're skipping significant mechanics. Otherwise, I can still fail mechanics if I don't pay attention or if I forget what a mechanic does, especially when playing "busier" jobs. And I'm only talking Normal/Hard contents here.

That's the one thing this game is missing, fun.

I disagree. If I'm not having fun in this game, then I wouldn't be playing it.

[Ralph2449]

...Who hurt you?

The very short sighted and ignorant demands for customization while we are surrounded by proof of what happens when you give customization to Gamers Tm and how it always results in metaslaves ruining the fun of everyone who doesn’t worship the meta and thus creates a ton more problems and solves nothing because people play the same build anyway.

Elitists start spreading the broken ‘meta’ build everywhere and that slowly spreads to lower and lower end content and when that mentality starts afflicting average players the community descends fully into toxic elitism where if you dont follow the elitist metaslave builds you are out.

I mean just go take a look in WoW forums, just checked and there was a thread in the first page of such a person afflicted with that mentality whining about how:
‘I don’t have enough conduit energy to change to my battleground build so I won’t play bgs’ which translates to ‘if I can’t play the meta broken build for X I cannot play’

Like do you realize how unhealthy such a person has to be to refuse to play what they want because they don’t have the ‘meta build’?
Elitism has made people suffer so much that now they are unable to comprehend even the idea of playing without being metaslaves and when these average players have been transformed into that you cannot avoid elitism because even in low end content that mentality is everywhere.

And the irony is most of those people aren’t that great, I say that because I am the opposite of a metaslave, I am one of the few people that choose fun underperforming builds and chose the sub optimal covenant and I more often than not performed better than them in the real encounter which always results in ‘omg I didn’t know this thing was good, I always thought it was trash cuz my l33t meta guide told me’.
What matters to them isn’t real performance, it is what a raidbots sim or Warcraftlog 99 parse says

[Artemiz]

snip

You seem to get so angry about elitism in this game and it only really seems to kick in for the last 5th percentile of content, other than the odd moron in Void Arc or something. For 95% of content I could just pop my DF and headbutt my keyboard until it's over and nobody would care.

[Jojoya]

The very short sighted and ignorant demands for customization while we are surrounded by proof of what happens when you give customization to Gamers Tm and how it always results in metaslaves ruining the fun of everyone who doesn’t worship the meta and thus creates a ton more problems and solves nothing because people play the same build anyway.

It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence. You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs.

Save yourself hassle. Make some like minded friends and form a static instead of relying on PF, which is filled with incompetent players who need to lean on meta.