I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[Rufalus]

Damn shame that the FF XI remake got cancelled. Could have been an opportunity to bring a different kind of FF up to modern UI and graphics standard.

A xiv sub job system could work in theory but they would say it's unfeasible due to the gargantuan resource drain to implement and balance all permutations. Or if they left it wildly unbalanced they would want to restrict its usage down like limited jobs.

Dragoon + Paladin = Holy Dragoon tanking with spear and spells.
Blm + Whm = Sorcerer like ShB Y'stola.
Monk + Ninja = Black Belt greased huton.

[Ralph2449]

You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs

You are absolutely correct, video game content is never tuned to require meta to be beaten, if you got a team of decent people and arent metaslaves you will progress fine, if anything you ll progress faster than the average metaslaving group since you can think for yourself.

It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence.

I wouldnt blame the devs for its mere existence, dev incompetence can make things worse if they refuse to make frequent adjustments and let things be so they are not "disruptive" to FotM metaslaves. And since the only way to hurt the meta is to make frequent changes, things only become worse in those cases.
If you are talking about players then it would be on a really subconscious level cuz I ve seen a few people who unironically think and act like they are the gods gift to humanity while all they do is simply play the most busted spec/builds at that moment, it is scary that a person can become this delusional FROM A VIDEO GAME!

Save yourself hassle. Make some like minded friends and form a static instead of relying on PF, which is filled with incompetent players who need to lean on meta

I wish that was an easy thing to achieve, easily the fastest and most fun way of getting through content, arguably one of the harder things to find though, I came from WoW where i already had to jump around 3-4 guilds trying to find that "like minded" group and when things started looking like they were working, guild died for unrelated reasons and it can be pretty mentally tiring having to start all over again trying to find yet another guild with the hopes that people there will be good and also hope it isnt gonna die for whatever reason.

[Daibunnie]

RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

Feel free to make your own group without those "elitists" then.

[Payadopa]

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety. Tanks and healers are the worst in that regard.

[LisSquid]

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety. Tanks and healers are the worst in that regard.

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay.

Then we went through a period of dedicated healing and tanking roles in mmos. That doesn't mean tanks and healers ever stopped doing damage, but the kit you had was clipped severely. You stop healing or let your mitigation fall off and your party is done! It's been slow, but lots of mmo games have been returning H/T to support rather than pure roles. FF14 just seems slow by hacking away at our toys, and giving us more oGCD heals than we can carry when everything but the upper crust of content in this game really requires you to hardcast a heal.

As a healer? I would enjoy a more support style gameplay for those days that I'm not having to hardcast a heal, one that feeds back into healing or mitigation would be a good synergy of playstyle.

[Anhra]

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay

You are forgetting that MMO's design the skillkit of classes also in a way, which works for both PvE and PvP at the same time. Not only does doing so allow for alot of variety, it is even necessary to do so, or else, one class might not only become too close in terms of gameplay to another, but it aldo creates a concept which is completely alien in FFXIV: a learning curve.

FFXIV shot itself into the foot with its numerous quality of life improvements in the combat system, and instead of treating the wound, it was left to rot and now the only way to fix this, is to cut off both legs.

What i mean is, FFXIV's Job design doesn't even have any focus on what their Jobs are suppoest to be. Just by comparing the Jobs inside their designated role, you can clearly see how many things those have in common, and how little they don't. They may have eliminated the weakness which Healers and Tanks used to have back then, but it was those weaknesses that defined those two roles in the first place and managing to keep multiple healing/tank classes within a game as unique as possible from one another, is what i would call a fun experience, and balance shouldnt have a place in this.

[Ralph2449]

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay.

Again though you are forgetting that the gaming community has changed tremendously since those old days.

That attitude existed back then which allowed people to see games just as video games to have fun, not some source of self worth via obsessive parsing, classic wow was the perfect example because it showed that what made vanilla different was that the gaming community wasnt the disaster that it is today, with the current gaming community classic was instantly filled with elitist metaslaves that demand people minmax literally the smallest things in a game that doesnt require even half of that performance.

You believe that if a game becomes popular and has the system you are thinking, that it wont instantly devolve into "X meta build for Y" and most people wont just copy those premade builds?

It doesnt matter how many options the devs create, the metaslave mindset has afflicted so many people in the gaming community in general that their initial response to any game is to google "what is the best build for what they are doing" because they have completely forgotten what it is to play games casually, choose the playstyle you enjoy and learn them yourself instead of copy pasting whatever xXxL33TGuidexXx says, they dont think for themselves, they dont care about exploring, they just obsess over minmaxing because either they are the elitist types that confuse video games as some triumphant achievement and love to gatekeep themselves or because they want to do group content but wont be able to do that content due to the gatekeeping so their resigned themselves to blindly following the "best build" as well.

The amount of people who are knowingly going to choose a sub optimal build are very few and far between.

[LisSquid]

Again though you are forgetting that the gaming community has changed tremendously since those old days.

That attitude existed back then which allowed people to see games just as video games to have fun, not some source of self worth via obsessive parsing, classic wow was the perfect example because it showed that what made vanilla different was that the gaming community wasnt the disaster that it is today, with the current gaming community classic was instantly filled with elitist metaslaves that demand people minmax literally the smallest things in a game that doesnt require even half of that performance.

You believe that if a game becomes popular and has the system you are thinking, that it wont instantly devolve into "X meta build for Y" and most people wont just copy those premade builds?

It doesnt matter how many options the devs create, the metaslave mindset has afflicted so many people in the gaming community in general that their initial response to any game is to google "what is the best build for what they are doing" because they have completely forgotten what it is to play games casually, choose the playstyle you enjoy and learn them yourself instead of copy pasting whatever xXxL33TGuidexXx says, they dont think for themselves, they dont care about exploring, they just obsess over minmaxing because either they are the elitist types that confuse video games as some triumphant achievement and love to gatekeep themselves or because they want to do group content but wont be able to do that content due to the gatekeeping so their resigned themselves to blindly following the "best build" as well.

The amount of people who are knowingly going to choose a sub optimal build are very few and far between.

Have we met? I am not sure you understood the conversation I was engaging with as you seem to assume I'm taking about character builds vs dev assigned class kits.

Healer and tank design in 14 right now is terrible. Spamming one button isn't fun, but it's a consolation prize left over from "keep healing or die" playstyle that has fallen out of fashion inside 14 and the rest of mmos in general. There hasn't been an increase of other activities for healers to do while damage has actually gone down.

Why do you think GNB is so popular as a tank? It's not because of meta chasing. Ask any GNB main and they'll say it's because it's fun. It has such a small, nice little rotation, but that is more than they have given any of the support jobs. In fact they removed the already paltry amount of non-healing buttons from SCH and, well, you can see the still unfolding fallout on the healer forums.

And do not bring that "pure healer mindset" to me and call me a meta chaser for wanting more engaging healer play. Really, heal anything besides alliance raid or dungeon wall-to-walls and observe your key clicks as a healer. A whole lot of one button with a dot refresh.

[LariaKirin]

And the irony is most of those people aren’t that great, I say that because I am the opposite of a metaslave, I am one of the few people that choose fun underperforming builds and chose the sub optimal covenant and I more often than not performed better than them in the real encounter which always results in ‘omg I didn’t know this thing was good, I always thought it was trash cuz my l33t meta guide told me’.
What matters to them isn’t real performance, it is what a raidbots sim or Warcraftlog 99 parse says

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

[SaberMaxwell]

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

It's funny, to read his posts he's one of the most toxic elitists I've ever seen, what with him constantly putting down others who enjoy a specific content style and the way they go about learning to enter that content.

Methinks he doth protest too much personally.