Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

We know that Hydaelyn has tempered before. The cave paintings portraying her and Zodiark had smaller figures underneath them, sporting matching colors. We could get obtuse about it, and say that merely represented their factions, but I doubt that the Hydaelyn faction figured out how to summon a primal that doesn't temper on summoning, using the same summoning technique as the Convocation.

A line of thought I had, after Y'shtola and Krile aired their theory

At the end of 2.0 we see a flash of the crystals that represent the Source and the Shards. At first they are blue and bright, but then there is a flash, and they all turn purple and dark. Every other time we've seen them, they're portrayed in the blue. Looking back at that scene now, it seems to me as though the reverse could also be true. That is to say, we've never heard Zodiark talk to anyone. We assume this is because he is Sundered. and now with SHB, we also assume this is because he could be mindless from missing his heart. However, could it be that Hydaelyn can't take the time to talk to us, because she has to work actively to keep him mute/asleep? I for one, want to know, why is it that Hydaelyn can talk to everyone along all of the Shards and Source, but Zodiark never could.

I agree. The way they're going about it is...

there's gradations of tempering but not tempering at all requires, from what we've seen, a different approach, enslaving the primal in a sense by using already tempered summoners. There's little yet to suggest she falls under that category, and it would be simpler just to employ similar logic as with Tiamat for the both of them.

I also agree on the possible meaning of that flash change.

Originally Posted by Jandor

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

That might depend on how old Alexander actually is.

It's probably one of those things we're not supposed to compare too closely, since we've fought the time-warping Alexander and the reality-hopping Omega, and the whole Shadowbringers story implies that in the future, mortals like us will be able to reverse-engineer both of those (plus the Crystal Tower) enough to surpass them individually.

So Hydaelyn and Zodiark are starting to feel like they might not be so mysterious in type, even if they're vastly more powerful in degree. But that's not what the story is trying to be, so I figure we have to kind of fudge around with stated capabilities a bit to maintain that sense of escalation. (Personally, as I've mentioned before, I don't think the escalation is necessary, but that's a whole other conversation.)

Originally Posted by Jandor

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

This is something that a lot of people need to understand i feel. I agree with you and there’s a lot of signs in the story pointing toward this conclusion. Like yes they’re both primals, but that’s really where the similarities end. There’s a big difference in scale of let’s say Lakshmi and then Zodiark or Hydaelyn.

Originally Posted by Kesey

To be fair, Hydaelyn's purpose stated by Venat and followers is that Zodiark only extends the time till the end days and Hydaelyn needs to be summoned as a permeant solution to the end days. They then go on to show that Venat has to specifically be the heart to get the result they want. Granted we need more of a justification from Venat and company, but this doesn't necessary prove that Hydaelyn's only purpose is to keep Zodiark in check but more her purpose is to stop the end of the world.

Furthermore, the cave paintings from Shadowbringers at the end of Qitana Ravel also show that we are missing an event because there is a panel where Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just together--like they were balanced--then the next panel follows to their fight. If we are to assume that Hydaelyn was summoned for the only purpose of sundering Zodiark then why would this panel be here?

Lastly, there is another panel in Rak'tika Greatwood in the first set of cave paintings looked at by the WOL and Y'shtola near the Children of the Everlasting Dark. Three panels there show Ardbert and party saving the first, the rise of the Ronkan Empire, and another event involving a bright light or a crystal--which may also depict something else involving Hydaelyn.

If Zodiark mostly invokes Astral Will of the Planet and the ancients were full aware of the need for balance, Hydaelyn may have been summoned as the Umbral Will of the Planet to help balance him out. The hopes may have been that instead of one voice making all the decisions, there would be two different voices that could reach compromise much like how the Amaurotine people did through their various verbal debates, leading to a better result. However, something happened that led to the fight between the two, because there's no way both Elidibus and Venat would just seek to fight when both come from the very civilization that sought debate to solve problems.

Originally Posted by Alleo

She says that "Primordial forces will strive to achieve equilibrium" so I guess no matter what the first was always much more turned towards the light. Which begs the question on what will happen with the first in the future? The 13th shard is still in a bad shape....if these strange forces still stive to equilibirium wouldnt they again turn the first towards the light?

I don't think so. The 13th still has platforms and areas not completely Astral as shown by the World of Darkness raid. Similarly the 1st still has areas not completely Umbral. With the team on the 1st trying to fix the 13th, equilibrium seems to be on its way already.

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If Zodiark mostly invokes Astral Will of the Planet and the ancients were full aware of the need for balance, Hydaelyn may have been summoned as the Umbral Will of the Planet to help balance him out. The hopes may have been that instead of one voice making all the decisions, there would be two different voices that could reach compromise much like how the Amaurotine people did through their various verbal debates, leading to a better result. However, something happened that led to the fight between the two, because there's no way both Elidibus and Venat would just seek to fight when both come from the very civilization that sought debate to solve problems.

I thought about it along those lines too. But there is the problem where Emet claims the convocation was tempered to Zodiark and to further back that up (granted this was based on our pre-5.5 assumptions of tempering) Venat's followers confirm the inability to convince the convocation to listen to their pleas. Seeing as they do come from a society of debate and discussion, it had to be jarring that the convocation refused to hear them, but if the convocation was tempered then rejecting the summoning of Hydaelyn idea isn't so far fetched. But Krile, at the end of this newest patch, has already started the questioning of the true nature of tempering and implies that people with the echo are bound to Hydaelyn's will (which is interesting the idea is said by her, who also has the echo and heard Hydaelyn)--which can, in light of the previous points, justify that Hydaelyn's purpose is balance so the end of days doesn't come to pass.

It will also be interesting to see how the missing event plays out too. As it will most likely involve Azem, who seems to have been missing from the Ancient Zodiark and Hydaelyn struggle, but had to have played a key role in events or Hydaelyn would have never chosen the WOL as her current champion.

Originally Posted by Kesey

It will also be interesting to see how the missing event plays out too. As it will most likely involve Azem, who seems to have been missing from the Ancient Zodiark and Hydaelyn struggle, but had to have played a key role in events or Hydaelyn would have never chosen the WOL as her current champion.

I really hope that we learn more about Azem. I am too curious on what their final decision was. Maybe we only saw the first meeting and later Azem decided to still help with Hydealyn. Or maybe he/she had a whole other idea how to deal with the sound, maybe even just punch it.

I wonder if the echo is something of Hydealyns doing, I thought she is only able to awake it but not really create it. So basically all those that got the echo are ancient souls that in some cases activate the dormant power. And when it activates people bascially hear Hydealyns voice that she sents out constantly (at least if Elidibus is right). But not everyone that has the echo follows on her path which imo makes no sense if that alone is some kind of tempering. IMO if she really tempers in some way it must be when the person becomes a WoL.