"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[EirolOcarrol]

I struggled to get this in the title. But something that's been bothering me for a while is that while we sing the praises of this game and its story and world. Often comparing it favorably with other titles in the Final Fantasy series.

Journalists writing articles like "Shadowbringers is the best Final Fantasy game in years". Players telling people who are fans of the Final Fantasy series in general, not to be intimidated by the fact it's an MMORPG, and that if they let it being an online game put them off, they're missing out on more Final Fantasy content and fun. And to "please not worry" that it's an online game in general.

The idea being that a lot of Final Fantasy fans don't want to put up with an MMORPG, and are put off by the term and concept. They just want to play a Final Fantasy. And people try to convince those hardcore Final Fantasy or RPG fans to try XIV. That it's just as Final Fantasy as the rest.


But they the community turns around and says things like if you're not longer a sprout, you don't have room to make mistakes. Yell at people for messing up unusual dungeons or trials like the Chrysalis, who don't know when to use a limit break there. Not knowing the mechanics of a boss already. Berate people for not knowing what to do in the Crystal Tower raid series, who are going there for the story for the first time(like not knowing what to do for Cerberus). Getting annoyed with tanks for not grabbing over a dozen enemies and moving super quickly through the dungeon. Saying that YoshiP is wrong for being against parsers, and that "casuals" who parse low are the toxic ones.

Wanting to win, and wanting to help people around battles is fine. But advice is often far from friendly. And the expectations people have on people, with the reasoning that "well, you're playing an online game, so you have the responsibility to be good at playing for your team. If you don't want to be an amazing player and metagamer, you shouldn't be playing XIV." Or, that people should watch a guide for a dungeon that would be a spoiler to do so.

And these are two statements that absolutely cannot coexist. And I'm amazed by just how impatient and meta focused, and criticizing people can be for a role playing game. A game and genre focused on storytelling and worldbuilding.

Like, XIV can be a "hardcore" game for impatient players racing to some kind of goal, and can't afford a single inconvenience of slight DPS loss. Or it can be a game that any Final Fantasy fan can enjoy.

It can't be both. And expecting people to be pro veterans in order to play the game is silly. And honestly I understand why YoshiP and the team err on the side of discouraging elitism and entitlement as much as they can. They're much more in danger of people harassing others for not playing well than they are from people who aren't good telling others "you don't pay my sub".

Honestly, in my time adventuring, I haven't come across a single person who said "you don't pay my sub". And among the most toxic things in that variety was a tank in a party telling someone off by saying "I know what I'm doing". And they seemed like an aggressive person in general.

People got into the Final Fantasy series for the story. If they didn't, they would have focused on a more challenging, gameplay focused series.

People either need to accept that Final Fantasy XIV may not be for Final Fantasy fans, and accept disgruntled fans of the series who don't want to give online RPGs a chance. Or, not act like people who don't like parsers are the problem.

I don't know how else to say it. Getting irritated at people who don't use a ranged DPS limit break on Nero, because it saves just a few short seconds, does not make a lifelong Final Fantasy VI fan want to play Final Fantasy XIV. Or make the proposition look enticing.

[Jijifli]

tl;dr, Parsing bad, I wanna play vercure mage.

I've never seen anyone actually get upset at anyone for not doing 99 percentile, ever. EVER. Usually it's people being borderline afk for "the story" that get people going.

[Reinha]

Can people not enjoy a final fantasy game and play well at the same time?

Just tell people that you don't know the raid mechanics and people will help. You are supposed to know how to play your job, though. Double pulls are possible even in a dungeon you are new to, because they are all similar enough.

[Iscah]

The playerbase is not homogenous. Different people think in different ways, and the ones shouting at sprouts are probably not the ones who would eagerly recommend "FFXIV the JRPG" to those sprouts.

It's not just the journalists recommending the game to FF fans while all the players resent it.

The statements do coexist, just not coming from the same people.

[SturmChurro]

Can people not enjoy a final fantasy game and play well at the same time?

Just tell people that you don't know the raid mechanics and people will help. You are supposed to know how to play your job, though. Double pulls are possible even in a dungeon you are new to, because they are all similar enough.

Oh, so that's what this thread is about? Yeah, for real. Apparently, playing well is heresy according to some. Heck, not even "well", how about playing at an "acceptable" level.

[MilkieTea]

You can enjoy the story and enjoy being a decent player who focuses on DPS. You can enjoy the story and understand that yes, you *do* have a responsibility to play at a certain level in optional/semi-optional content. That certain level is knowing your class and knowing how to dodge aoes. No one's asking for someone to be top-tier in a CT raid. Just good enough to avoid a wipe and avoid ko-ing other players because you are playing with others

The two statements can coexist - Play FFXIV if you love final fantasy games. Play FFXIV and ensure you understand that you have a responsibility to yourself and others to play on a decent/average level.

[ZedxKayn]

The issue is that progressing through the story REQUIRES people to party up, and if you party up, you are expected, and should be a team player.

The obvious fix would be adding trusts to every MSQ dungeon and trial. But until then "story-only" people have to get into a team setting and should be expected to behave accordingly.
That is putting in "effort" (in other words, not having an APM of 15 and doing what is expected of them) and taking tips and criticism well.

If they can't do that, they are playing a game that does not fit their mindset at the moment, and frankly I think they should stay away from it because their laziness and hostility is effectively ruining the fun of a lot of other players.

[Saefinn]

They can co-exist as long as people accept the other exists and are valid...and I think for the most part they do.

At the end of the day if you're in a roulette, it's exactly that, a roulette so you have to accept you might get new players. Whilst things like Chrysalis prove frustrating to me I now will give a quick break down whenever I get it making sure to at the very least say "save LB for the tear" and my success rate has been higher on first pull. If roulettes are too risky because you want something quick, easy and smooth then run them with friends, start up a party finder and so on. Heck, sometimes when a friend needs to run something I'll offer up as a healer so it goes more smoothly and I invite friends when I roulette. But if you're going to be joining up for a clear party then make sure you know what you're doing as to not waste people's time and join a learning party if you need practice or aren't close to a clear. So I think it goes both ways really. DF is a roulette, PF is more based on the party maker's requirements. Can't find something to meet your requirements? Make your own. So I think there's enough to accommodate both.

And of course, don't dive into something if you're not ready, this is where it will differ from single player Final Fantasys because you're impacting other players too.

Fortunately if you're playing the game the normal way, difficulty is progressive and is an MMO that does a lot to accommodate newer players, but once you reach certain levels of difficulty then I think it's fair to expect some basic competency. Like if you're tank, that you how to tank, if you're a healer how to heal. Early dungeons will hold your hand to help people get used to these concepts. It is a multiplayer game still and one with challenges. But optimisation I don't think is important until endgame, so I think that gives people leeway for everything else to not feel they need to do things optimally at the same time it's good practice for those progressing into higher end content.

And I feel if you don't know a fight, put your hand up and say so and people can help explain anything. Some do, some don't, those who don't may also continue to not communicate after successive wipes. And this is where it gets more frustrating or when there's people who clearly aren't listening. And most of the time I'm like "there's no shame in it", everybody has a first time and some mechanics are not immediately obvious.

But of course, hardcore players have their place in the game and there is content tailored towards them. And some of them can be super helpful to new and inexperienced players trying to get better at the game. The way I see it, if the majority of people are helpful and constructive then the community benefits from better players. Shaming people for not being as good means people don't improve. And I find in a lot of cases it's the former rather than the latter, but the latter still exists.

And a Final Fantasy isn't /just/ about story and world building. We're talking about a series notorious for super bosses. From Adamantoise of XV to Pandemonium Warden of XI to Yiazmat of XII to Ozma of IX to Emerald Weapon of VII etc. And some of the older FF titles were grindy and tougher compared to modern ones.

[EirolOcarrol]

Oh, so that's what this thread is about? Yeah, for real. Apparently, playing well is heresy according to some. Heck, not even "well", how about playing at an "acceptable" level.

I don't think it's a heresy to anyone. There's a reason that they've banned some streamers using parsers for calling out other people and being toxic.

Being able to clear dungeons ought to be enough. But this forum already has many people who immediately shoot down ideas because "this might ruin the balance and nobody wants to have someone in their party with slightly less job efficiency". That degree of hyperfocus on efficiency, any everything outside of it being limited to limit jobs, seems obsessive. Every job has always been able to clear all dungeons. And a hyperfocus on efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, at the cost of anything that might bring diversity to play. Seems like an unhealthy fixation. Not to mention people not being accommodating to new players. You don't have to be a sprout to be new. People who rushed through the MSQ are still sprouts in a sense, even if the game doesn't call them sprouts.

There are people out there who will downright tell people that they don't deserve to play Final Fantasy XIV because of a mistake they made. And that's not healthy for any game, let alone a Final Fantasy game.

[Tommara]

I agree with the OP, with some caveats.

While I consider myself a Final Fantasy fan, I only played a few of them on the 8-bit Nintendo (early '90s). The numbering system in the US differs from the Japanese versions but I'll never forget the second one I played, where the twin mages turned themselves into stone to prevent a party-wipe. It made me cry, then my next reaction was, "whoa, I need to step back from caring so much about a video game".

In hind sight, a good story is a good story, whatever the medium. The absolute best story during that period was Chrono Trigger, also a Square Soft/Enix/whatever game. I was blown away when the evil warlord during the first part of the game joined my party after I defeated him. Schala's (his sister) theme is unequaled as the best music I've ever heard in a video game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGL2YE1LT7s, despite being a midi. OK, years later, Anarchy Online's loading music equaled it (you can't hear it now, since it loads so fast now compared to the dialup connections we had then, unless you hang out in Borealis at night. And I can no longer find a recording of it online (if anyone knows of one, I'd dearly appreciate a link).

All of that ties into my story - I dropped single player RPGs when Diablo was released, then played mostly MMOs beginning with Everquest.

So I get what the OP is saying. I started playing FF14 at release, before video spoilers existed. We died over and over again while trying to figure out the mechanics or stuff like "kill the bees/maidservants". I've quit and came back several times, each time long enough to forget what I've learned before.

Coming back this time was particularly difficult joining a roulette because my toon qualified for more than I could remember, so many that even if I watched all the vidoes that now exist, I couldn't possibly remember them all.

But then I discovered a peculiar thing. The original A Realm Reborn was so much more difficult than the latter expansions, at least with respect to 4-man groups. Survive those, and it becomes much easier. And they are much easier than they used to be, or maybe I did learn something from doing them.

I also think I have an easier time returning because my "sprout" flag was removed long ago, so long ago that they've since changed the requirements and the game now doesn't recognize that I met them a long time ago. I know there's a way to manually remove it, but I kinda like having it. No one has ever been mean to me for messing up.

Maybe it would help if players could choose to keep the sprout flag until they are comfortable with dropping it?

Edited Note: found a link to the Anarchy Online loading screen/Borealis at night music, although the sound quality is really bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElNK-zbtlqE, beginning about the 5 minute mark (4 minutes, 50 sec to be exact)("Suppression" is short for "suppression gas" that prevents combat, including PvP combat).