Group-DPS buffs aren't real "Utility" or "Support"

[Craiger]

I don't really see a problem with how it is currently.

It's the most balanced we've had it, and diversity should come from how the jobs' rotation works etc IMO.

Raid damage utility... Sure, but not all jobs.

Other kinds of support utility doesn't really add anything but problems, unless we're talking about some utility that all physical ranged for example get.

They can't balance a fight around utility, which I hope everyone here realize. That would brake the game.

So if they can't balance around having a certain utility from one dps job, then why would you need it? Why would you sacrifice DPS for it?

If all DPS jobs got some utility (not rDPS), and therefore had similar DPS, then the utility would either be pointless or it would be very unbalanced.

Only reason Red Mage has still been pretty good even when it hasn't given as much rDPS, is because raising someone is one of the very few things that can (IF people even die) actually be important.

They won't give everyone instant raises, so what else can they give jobs that won't be useless or totally broken?

For example mantra isn't really doing anything. Maybe in very select situations it can help, but if you wipe without it, someone has messed up. An even if it were to help in some very specific scenario (doubt it), it would only possibly let a healer do one less healing ability or something, which in the end just amounts to DPS.

So again, why not just make each job unique in terms of how they perform their rotation etc? If you don't think they are that now, well that's another point, but that can be fixed.

[Raikai]

It's the nature of the beast tho... The more unique benefits a certain job/class has in MMORPGS, bigger are the chances of cherry picking and when it comes to desirability. WoW had a similar curve with utility x homogenization.

Homogenization is needed for balancing purposes, but inversely terrible for individual fulfillment.

I keep thinking that the only possible way to address this without less bumps is a support role turned official. Dunno if it would really think in XIV without a lot of shifted gears, tho.

Or, staying as it is, the other thing to make jobs interesting is investing in less homogenized playstyles instead... Which is kinda the situation they're going right now for DPSers, but not as much for tank and healers.

[ForteNightshade]

I get why that's a thing so don't get me wrong, but that is exactly why I can't stand the vocal minority and their obsession with DPSing above all else. The X% DPS increase is just plain boring. And gameplay feel will always be more meaningful to me than raw numbers, I'm sorry to say, no matter what equadions people come up with.

Here is hoping for 6.0 .

To be fair, that isn't the community at fault nor a vocal minority. The dev team simply doesn't give us any reason to care about anything beyond damage. Look no further then healing. They're all but begging for a greater emphasise on healing and utility—which the dev team clearly prefers when we see adjustments like they did recently with Energy Drain. The problem is they continuously focus on the lowest common denominator; that healer who thinks Cure III is an upgrade over Cure II and who spams Medica II at the slightest out going damage. This results is utterly laughable healing "checks". A prime example right now is E12N. Her outgoing damage is so low, you literally can have one healer AFK and no one would notice. Hard to get excited about healing when you'll literally do nothing more than spam Glare in most content.

Simply put. The community, especially at the higher level raid scene, adapts to the tools we're given. And throughout this game's life span, damage is, sadly, all that matters.

[Maltothoris]

Like everyone else has said, damage utility is the best utility in that it's the one that has the most consistent returns and the tangible results to prove it. As great as extra healing and defense are, the problem is that fights are scripted in not just the rotation but also the damage as well. You know how hard things are going to hit once you get the flow done. For example, the only gcd healing I have to do in Emerald is the orbs for 2/2/2/2. Everything else I can just gcd healing because the damage is that predictable and spread out. Any extra mitigation outside of reprisal and the range utility is superfluous at best. Only in certain fights like UCOB golden bahamut or TEA perfect alex is more defensive utility needed.

[Sylvain]

. Only in certain fights like UCOB golden bahamut or TEA perfect alex is more defensive utility needed.

And appreciated, as usually in these encounter the dps is rarely an issue

[Equitable_Remedy]

Homogenization is needed for balancing purposes, but inversely terrible for individual fulfillment.

This statement may have some sort of intuitive appeal, but I don't think it's particularly connected to the reality of the game.

NIN really doesn't play like DNC really doesn't play like BLM really doesn't play like DRG.

[Equitable_Remedy]

And another thing!

On a subjective level, hitting Trick Attack feels like utility to me. Yes, I'm planning my rotation around it to maximize my damage, but I'm hitting it to increase everyone's damage. I say that as someone who loves utility on DPS.

In the abstract, more non-damage utility is great, but in practice (as has been well described by many people in this thread) it's a tough design space to navigate. Utility in a game like this (and in most MMOs) needs to be damage or damage-equivalent to be balanceable—however, I do think that FF14 could perhaps push harder on the damage-equivalent side of things. (For instance, giving people resources that are then used for DPS can be balanced like DPS without being merely DPS.)

All of that being said, DNC is one of the best-designed support DPS classes in any MMO, imho—balanceable (and balanced), impactful, and fun to play. Don't pretend like you don't like it when the group's DNC slaps dance partner on you. You like it.

[Payadopa]

To be fair, that isn't the community at fault nor a vocal minority. The dev team simply doesn't give us any reason to care about anything beyond damage. Look no further then healing. They're all but begging for a greater emphasise on healing and utility—which the dev team clearly prefers when we see adjustments like they did recently with Energy Drain. The problem is they continuously focus on the lowest common denominator; that healer who thinks Cure III is an upgrade over Cure II and who spams Medica II at the slightest out going damage. This results is utterly laughable healing "checks". A prime example right now is E12N. Her outgoing damage is so low, you literally can have one healer AFK and no one would notice. Hard to get excited about healing when you'll literally do nothing more than spam Glare in most content.

Simply put. The community, especially at the higher level raid scene, adapts to the tools we're given. And throughout this game's life span, damage is, sadly, all that matters.

Yeah, I agree to a point. The devs should facilitate us not looking at only the damage output. With that being said, I don't get the obsession with balance in a game that, let's face it, has very easy combat encounters 95% of the time (that's not to say I don't screw up often, but encounters are more about memorisation than adaptation).

If you get excluded by your raid static because you play X (X being the lowest job on the meta list), just go to another one. I have a great static and if I want to go in as X nobody cares.

Any content can be cleared with any combination of jobs but yet we must homogenise everything lest a job gets excluded. That sounds more like a community problem. But, again, I think it's absolutely fair that the devs should communicate that better through the game.

But at the end of the day I still love the game and I'm having fun so there is that. I just hope we get some uniqueness back. ^^

[Equitable_Remedy]

I don't get the obsession with balance

Any content can be cleared with any combination of jobs

Here's the secret: these two things are related.

[Laphicet]

Here's the secret: these two things are related.

Any content could be cleared with any combination of jobs in Stormblood, as well, and jobs had nearly equal usage, too (at least in the healer department). And yet they still gutted the healers and tanks and gave us the ugly, gray blandness of homogenization we have now (where there are clear preferences for specific classes when you look at participation, too, with ridiculous shit like WHM being used more than SCH and AST combined and WHM having as much as 4x the usage of AST early on in the expansion, and with WAR facing the lowest usage of the tanks by a significant amount in spite of the damage of the tanks being within a very small margin of each other. The obsession with balance and making all the classes play the same is hurting usage and variety, pretty significantly at that.

EDIT: not to mention the lore trainwreck that is caused by the AST changes (Arcana butchered, Jannequinard made a rambling fool instead of "bad in practice knowledgeable with theory", time manipulation completely dropped and thus the meaning of the 60 quest somewhat lost, Jannequinard and Leveva constantly talking about royal road and nonsense that's not used anymore making them look incredibly unlearned, and a lot more) ,and SCH changes (Faeries have no difference now, "use the leeches", the soldier side of Nymain Scholars lost with their DPS gutting, and some other small stuff), and to a lesser extent DRK (no real punishment for "going in too deep" with dark abilities anymore, which is a key theme of the 30-50 quests).