Mentor system needs an overhaul

[HyoMinPark]

Do you mean just current extremes (as the post you're replying to was mentioning current content)?
Or do you mean stuff like ARR EXes have no business being mentor content?

I think they mean both. And I kind of have to agree.

This game allows players to just smash their faces on their keyboards for so much content that the second anything challenging appears, they completely fall apart. A lot of them also don’t want to listen to the directions and explanations mentors try to give them. As someone who has done ARR and HW extremes via Mentor Roulette, even getting the new players to do simple things like stacking Nidhogg’s Ahk Morn marker or not pointing Ravana’s OT cleave towards the entire party is extremely difficult. People seem to also carry around this mentality of “oh, it’s old content so I can just throw my keyboard against the wall and still clear”. Which, I mean, the game helps perpetuate. However, that doesn’t always fly. Old extremes certainly aren’t what they were at release (the easy ones and the harder ones), but they still require a bit more thought than I think some players are willing to give them. Especially sprouts that seem to think they’re probably just another “Hard” Mode.

[ItMe]

I think they mean both. And I kind of have to agree.

This game allows players to just smash their faces on their keyboards for so much content that the second anything challenging appears, they completely fall apart.
[...]
People seem to also carry around this mentality of “oh, it’s old content so I can just throw my keyboard against the wall and still clear”. Which, I mean, the game helps perpetuate. However, that doesn’t always fly. Old extremes certainly aren’t what they were at release (the easy ones and the harder ones), but they still require a bit more thought than I think some players are willing to give them. Especially sprouts that seem to think they’re probably just another “Hard” Mode.

So... if I'm following your post right, you're saying old EXes aren't faceroll but also not appropriate content for mentoring?
If it's the first content where challenge can make the run fall apart... shouldn't it be perfect for the mentor roulette?

[HyoMinPark]

So... if I'm following your post right, you're saying old EXes aren't faceroll but also not appropriate content for mentoring?
If it's the first content where challenge can make the run fall apart... shouldn't it be perfect for the mentor roulette?

No, I don’t think it’s good content for Mentor Roulette. People have to have patience and the right mentality to start taking on higher end content. Extremes get easier over time, and newer ones pale in comparison to some of the OG ARR and HW extremes. But the players that queue up through Mentor Roulette, in my experience, are not ready to tackle that content. They do not have the right mentality for it based on what I have seen and experienced. I mean, I got Ifrit EX once and despite deliberately marking where the Searing Wind healer should stand, they continued to run into the party with the debuff and kill a bunch of people. If players cannot follow the most basic directions, they aren’t ready for the content.

Old extremes aren’t faceroll the way most content up to their unlocks are. New players that queue into an extreme tend to think that “it won’t be that hard” but face a harsh reality of you can’t just press buttons, ignore mechanics, and win. And there are even players that aren’t fresh players or sprouts that also have this mentality. It’s not entirely their fault because this game doesn’t challenge you whatsoever. Any challenges that were present during the leveling process (e.g., dungeons like Aurum Vale and The Vault) have been nerfed through shadow nerfs and job changes that they don’t pose the same challenge they once did.

This isn’t even considering there are mentors out there who never did these fights synced or when they were relevant, and their only experiences are unsynced runs of old primals. I’ve met quite a few of them as well. They aren’t in a spot to teach the sprouts there. And acquiring mentor status allows unsynced clears to count (since the game doesn’t differentiate between the two).

[Lanadra]

I’m still of the opinion that mentors should have current content Extremes both unlocked and cleared. We’re expected to have previous expansion’s completed - why not this one?

The problem I have with your belief is that you equate 'these extremes are required for mentor roulette... so you shouldn't be allowed mentor unless you border on being a hardcore raider and can do current extremes'. I say again, these extremes are required only for the roulette and only because they're *in* it, which in itself already makes no sense because the general advise has always been 'don't pug extremes or above'.

You want to turn something that people generally recommend against, doing extremes through duty finder.. and make it a mentor requirement. And if you're going to argue 'off course I didn't mean do current extremes through DF' then your point has even less to do with it making sense for the mentor system. No, being able to clear current extremes has nothing to do with helping new players.

[HyoMinPark]

The problem I have with your belief is that you equate 'these extremes are required for mentor roulette... so you shouldn't be allowed mentor unless you border on being a hardcore raider and can do current extremes'. I say again, these extremes are required only for the roulette and only because they're *in* it, which in itself already makes no sense because the general advise has always been 'don't pug extremes or above'.

You want to turn something that people generally recommend against, doing extremes through duty finder.. and make it a mentor requirement. And if you're going to argue 'off course I didn't mean do current extremes through DF' then your point has even less to do with it making sense for the mentor system. No, being able to clear current extremes has nothing to do with helping new players.

Pugging Extremes is fine. Even Savage can be done with PUGs. That’s what most PF groups for Extremes and Savages are. However, Duty Finder has a much different mentality than Party Finder when it comes to higher end content. I outlined above the kinds of mentalities you see in sprouts, non-sprouts, and mentors alike in Mentor Roulette EXs. Most don’t have the right one for doing Extremes in a DF setting. PF is a bit of a different matter.

[Muutaras]

In fact, before it was even more fun, getting a mentor in craft, you could put yourself a mentor mark in pvp, pve. But what then that now I am only a trade mentor, although I could just put the crown. Since I will help any person with craft without any problems or give advice. But I don’t want play with pve mark or crown, since there was already a case with a friend, party began to condemn him that he was a mentor but was a little toxic (my friend does not tolerate stupid people who die 20 times from one mechanic and don’t want to learn or people do not do the mechanics because of which part of the team dies), but the most interesting thing is that he was also with trade mentoring.

But I agree that sometimes the "royal mentor" is worse than a sprout.

[Deceptus]

Do you mean just current extremes (as the post you're replying to was mentioning current content)?
Or do you mean stuff like ARR EXes have no business being mentor content?

Both.

Even synced, most extremes are too much for casuals to handle unprepared.

[Awha]

Personally if you have EX trials in mentor roulette then at the very least clearing every EX trial should be a requirement coupled with a clear x amount of each ex trial unsynced or just remove them all together from mentor roulette.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

The problem I have with your belief is that you equate 'these extremes are required for mentor roulette... so you shouldn't be allowed mentor unless you border on being a hardcore raider and can do current extremes'. I say again, these extremes are required only for the roulette and only because they're *in* it, which in itself already makes no sense because the general advise has always been 'don't pug extremes or above'.

You want to turn something that people generally recommend against, doing extremes through duty finder.. and make it a mentor requirement. And if you're going to argue 'off course I didn't mean do current extremes through DF' then your point has even less to do with it making sense for the mentor system. No, being able to clear current extremes has nothing to do with helping new players.

Lol. That's not my point at all but I don't blame you for running head long into that conclusion.

My actual point is to increase the overall quality of mentors you receive by getting rid of players who can't even clear a slight step above Normal content in difficulty.

The amount of mentors who are absolutely against even attempting to clear this expansion's versions of Extreme is mind-boggling. But I keep seeing it.

Also. What's up with the belief you're only there to help new players? Are asking mentors for advice strictly exclusive to sprouts? Am I not allowed to ask ya'll questions about lvl 80 content, raiding, rotations, pots, foods and so on?

[Deceptus]

My actual point is to increase the overall quality of mentors you receive by getting rid of players who can't even clear a slight step above Normal content in difficulty.

You need to define what you think normal content difficulty is.

Dungeons? Normal 8 Man raids? 24 man raids? Eureka Raids?

Because I can assure you, I see a LOT of failure from the FFXIV userbase in all of that content which tells me they are nowhere near ready for EX.

There is a pretty sizable difference between Dungeons and EX's. Usually, in current EX content, a few deaths and it's a wipe due to enrage. SE has loosened those enrages over the years because the overall playerbase is (IMHO) poor.