Dark Knight where is my Identiy

[OdinelStarrei]

This is going to be a very rambly, sorry if portions just don't make any sense.

Is WAR Clone an over-exaggeration? Slightly, but it's not without merit, and it's fairly obvious that that SE only listens to two things. 1. Mass outrage. 2. Memes. Actual measured, consistent feedback is pretty taxing and probably also not translated compared to blatant hyperbole. Why go through the effort of making detailed, well-considered breakdowns of a job's mechanics, which will probably never be acknowledged or moved up the chain, when you can instead join the chorus of dissatisfied players all screaming an easily understandable 2-syllable phrase? This nonsense is why SB DRK was gutted entirely instead of just tweaked to return it to more HW roots like it rightfully should have been. Fact of the matter is, "WAR CLONE" is a surface-level, easily parroted phrase that may one day end up finally breaking the language barrier and getting that section of the job fixed, unlike years of Living Dead agony. When it comes to stuff like, awful leveling experience, Spells not affected by SkS(dead stat), Blood Weapon duration, pre-pull mana ticks, a meaningless damage buff, reduced kit interactivity, low amounts of oGCDs between burst windows, low GCD diversity, high amounts of downtime between burst windows, arbitrary Salted Earth, TBN at BiS being inconsistent pre-final floor, overall wasted potential and other really frustrating issues, we'll just have to wait and see. There's certainly stuff beyond "Delirium bad pls fix"

I don't think you can reasonably disparage Dark Arts for being 140 potency oGCD, and praise Edge for being a 500 potency oGCD when they are from different times. Had Dark Arts survived into 5.0, I think it would be a reasonable assumption for it to also receive a potency increase trait. EoD, it's direct replacement, is 350 potency, and you can't use it nearly as much as 4.0 DA, due to MP acquisition changes. It's balanced in the grand scheme, only when Shadow rolls around do you start getting those big damage numbers.

Is Blood Weapon an Infuriate copy? Sure, but it's worse because of it's excessively tight duration. Ikkishoten, despite doing the "gain resource immediately for usage", has a few key differences, particularly in the usage department. Gap close, disengage, buff, and two types of oGCD damage output all pull from the same resource gauge, and you generate quite a lot more Kenki per minute, enough that Ikkishoten overcap and kenki misusage is actually a real consideration without going into optimization territory like on DRK. I don't think Mug and Barrel Stabilizer count either for similar reasons, and as an overarching theme, the jobs have other stuff going on with them that is different enough that it doesn't start centralizing the kit around it. Even Bloodfest is like this, because not only is the CD not 60 seconds, it's also explicitly intended to allow you to gain charges quickly during 90/180s for Gnashing and a Burst Strike at minimum, and it doesn't need to be pressed immediately on pull, it's quite flexible. It's a small part of a bigger whole. Maybe because Delirium Bloodspillers occupy so many actual GCDs it feels like a bigger part than it is.

When I think NIN, I don't think Mug, I think Mudras and Trick. When I think SAM, I think looping rotations, and Sen mechanics. When I think MCH, I don't think Barrel Stablizer, I think Heat Blast, Drill, and Ricochet/Gauss Round. There's so much devoid of DRK offensively outside of the 60 second MP dump, I think it's only natural people look at BW, especially considering how frustrating it constantly is, and say "Wow, I hate this trash infuriate copy." or that random Bloodspiller spam on the 90/180 that resembles something that their co-tank is also coincidentally doing at this exact moment. Stockpiling helps, but it doesn't FIX it, because Stockpiling by definition means you don't do anything. It also doesn't help that Blood Weapon WAS different before, much like Delirium, but was "nerfed" in the sense of an interesting job ability to conform. All of those things on other jobs were in the kits originally, WAR in particular had it's version augmented with charges and kit synergy. Only on DRK does it feel like things were TAKEN away and replaced with inferior versions. And that makes people bitter. To be honest, if Blood Weapon is going to be this trash, just outright give me 50 Blood and 3K MP, so I'm not "infuriated" when the 5th hit ghosts.

That also kinda transfers into what happened with Bloodspiller and Quietus. Those weren't originally thought as Fell Cleave/Decimates copies. Bloodspiller was just the refund for TBN, a blood dump and also Grit-agnostic under DA. It was never intended to be your main damage button back then. Slightly interesting. Quietus was the only physical aoe attack DRK had, which was important, as it now meant you had an instant full MP bar under Blood Weapon, particularly after it gained "Regains MP" on the skill as well. Very interesting. SB DRK AoE removal was a tragedy. Don't think Holy Spirit is seen as a Fell Cleave either, it's more like a filler spell you have to use to make Goring line up correctly, with the option of discarding in your spreadsheet if desired for quicker Confiteors or more accurate raid-buff alignment. Req and Hypercharge both have job-specific interactions with the kit that make them feel like siblings to IR, but not outright clones. If Bloodspillers regenerated more MP under Delirium, it could've had a similar reception, although that's contentious, considering Bloodspiller's current state and the state of Blood acquisition in general being so similar to Beast Gauge.

"Bloodspiller/Delirium isn't your main damage button now!" This is true, if you removed all the Delirium Bloodspillers, you'd have Edge and Souleater beat it by quite a bit. There's like 40 Bloodspillers in a standard fight that just disappear.

I also have issues with the "decisions" being made on the job. Lately, I ran with a group of WHM/AST/MCH/BLM/SAM/RDM. Woah, I had a whooping two raid buffs, one of which I can't even use Edge of Shadow in properly. At that point, I'd just do 3 edges on minutes 1-3-5..., and 5 edges on 2-4-6... with Divination. That's alright, I guess, but the more raid buffs you add in, the more fun the job gets, and I don't think my party composition should have a significant impact on the BASE enjoyment of the job. Job should be engaging on it's own, on a dummy, in my opinion. Optimization is important, of course, but if I'm playing in an environment where things are NOT planned or consistent, the fun factor just plummets for me, even when I'm TBNing people on raid-wides they would've survived anyway. I wish there was a significant difference between DRKs who plan out this stuff, and DRKs who do not.

Maybe I can clean this up later on, make it actually be not a meandering mess. Not going to change any minds by this point, of course. We've been in this deadlock for a very long time now. No one asked for this. No DRK wanted this amount of complaining, strife, and jank mechanics. Like, I wish I loved it, seriously.

There's nothing really wrong with individual opinions on the job, what's wrong is the complete and total lack of feedback or attempt to fix obvious problems of any sort.

FallenWings isn't wrong at all, in fact, they're probably living in the best timeline where stuff like this isn't constantly screaming at them internally every second they play the game.

Job is functional, but that's it. Endwalker will probably be better.

[Shin96]

People have raised way better points than me and also, the reason the WAR thing is repeated so much is because it's damn true.

If you want to play Warrior go ahead and play it. DRK should have its own identity irrespective of people screeching for it to be more accessible. In 3.0 DRK was a breakneck pace, crazy job of the likes you'd only find in a DMC game. Most of the actions removed were satisfying to use and fast-forward they removed almost everything except the worst looking skills that still remain to this day, (i.e Souleater). When I saw that half of my toolkit was gone by the time I played ShB on the first day I knew I will hate it. People said: "Give it a chance and look past 70 perhaps it will be fun". No it wasn't, and 2 years in it already is a love & hate relationship. This is an absolute disgrace of a rework, considering MCH got something actually fun to play without ripping off any other job in this game too much, perhaps mix some aspects in while staying true to its design philosophy of being a Machinist.

Same with AST. I'd venture as far as to say that it's way worse than the DRK rework. Yet the developers always find a way to piss off some portion of its playerbase instead of trying to engage with us, but since we're not JP players our opinions are like a drop of water in the ocean to them. Dime a dozen and if it's not a meme or SJW outrage it will not be taken seriously. Gone are the days where DRK felt like your character was losing control, with an aggressive playstyle that felt rewarding. Now you have some heroic garbage that plays like a Warrior but feels way worse. At least with Warrior you get the sweet CH on Inner Release, combine that with Fell Cleave and it never gets old. Meanwhile Delirium lacks all that impact. Edge of Shadow and Flood of Shadow your character doesn't even MOVE their arms that much. That's hilarious. Please get rid off this garbage forever, it's embarassing SE.

[RinaB]

For a game that is ultimately pve and story, I see no reason why we can't have talent options like wow. If there's a meta who cares, in any multiplayer game you're always gonna have meta and always going to have people making tier lists. Its also annoying to be the same DRK as every DRK, let alone have a warrior cooldown.

[ForteNightshade]

So by that logic, Bloodfest from GNB is a weaker Infuriate because it's 90 seconds and only opens up 2 more Burst Strikes(GNB Fell Cleave) and thus is a candidate for being called a WAR Clone. Samurai's Ikkishoten, Ninja's Mug, Machinist's Barrel Stabellizer are also clones of Infuriate because they generate resources instantly and thus are WAR clones?

Nevermind that we complain about Delirium being too mechanically similiar so when a comparative skill is mechanically different, it is also a bad thing? Bloodweapon again, still serves its primary function of being a resource gain buff and not only acquires blood for BS/QS/LS it also generates 3k mana for TBN/Edge/Flood. The number of resources gained being similiar is but a balance decision at the end of the day.

They are. That... really isn't up for debate. Every resource boost oGCD is either functionally similar or outright identical. The difference is they aren't the core aspects which define their respective jobs. What defines Gunbreaker; makes it stand out? It's cartridge combo. Burst Strike essentially serves the "Upheaval" equivalent in being a resource dump, and Bloodfest helps maintain flow and constantly due to its alignment with raid buffs. Put another way, it's the gravy you pour on top of the main course not the defining part of the dish. Take away Bloodfest and nothing about Gunbreaker changes in the same sense Mug, Ikkishoten and Barrel Stabilizer wouldn't change the core gameplay philosophy of their respective jobs. They may be more sparse in resources, but the identity wouldn't change because all of those abilities simply compliment an existing foundation. The same cannot be said of DRK, which is heavily reliant on Blood Weapon for an aspect of its gameplay. What's worse is unlike every other job you listed, only Dark Knight has to work twice as hard to produce the same result. Samurai simply presses Ikkishoten and not only continues its rotation normally, but actually has several options. Odinel more or less covered this, so I needn't belabor the point.

Heart of Light must be a weaker shake. Nevermind that these buffs excel in different areas like how shell ones like SiO and DV(oh no! A copy of WARs SiO!) are better for single instances of damage below your max hp and DM/HoL are greater for catching 2 instances of damage within its duration and instances of raid wide damage that far exceed max hp. But I guess all tanks who need raid wide mit are now WAR clones. Abyssal Drain is not even a direct comparison to Nascent Flash lol. It would be Equilibrium versus AD, the latter of which being weaker at ST but better at AoE. TBN is compared to Nascent and the former achieves a higher "heal" thanks to its duration and lack of required Inner Chaos being used with it.

It generally is, yes. Shields are typically better because so few Raid AoEs actually necessitate lasting mitigation. Those that do will be supplemented with additional shielding, Addle and so forth that the drawback of Shake is negligible more often than not. And this assumes you aren't buffing it. As for Divine Veil. It technically came before Shake yet is also inferior due to it requiring a GCD heal and having 5% less potency. Otherwise, yes. They are similar in that they both shield. Shake is simply better in literally every way. Not exactly a good comparison to make here.

How aren't Abyssal Drain and Nascent Flash fairly compared when their core function is identical? They both convert damage dealt into HP. This can't be ignored because it isn't convenient to your argument. Even if we did compare AD to Equilibrium. You then have to consider its synergy with Thrill, which both heals and essentially gives WAR Convalescence. This more or less closes the gap between them even in AoE scenarios, especially because Thrill is free. All that aside, TBN is better compared with Raw for similar reasons. It shares a similar function: mitigating oncoming damage. TBN is strictly better in this regard, but if you dismiss pairing Thrill with Equilibrium, then one becomes free here. Once again narrowing that gap. Simply put, Warrior always has an "extra" CD it can pair for synergy.

The change on the rate of gain for MP is subjective at the end. There are those who prefer stockpiling and using them in a controlled manner. And there are those who prefer to babysit a bar that won't stop overfilling with only a 140 ogcd pot button to keep it down. That's at the end of the day an opinion on which is more fun, not superior or inferior. I personally see Edge/Flood as oGCD Fell Cleaves/Decimates but better because they don't have the draw back of costing a GCD. To me they have huge impact as button presses because of the aforementioned potencies and MP costs. They very much define DRK rotation and optimization. If people can see Holy Spirit and Holy Circle as ranged magical Fell Cleave/Decimate then the same regard should be given to Edge/Flood.

You do realize this contradicts your argument above, yes? Earlier you claimed Abyssal Drain shouldn't be compared to Nascent despite their functional similarities yet now you're attempting to compare Edge of Shadow to Fell Cleave all while ignoring Bloodspiller, which is literally Fell Cleave both in functionality and its interaction with Delirium. That's simply disingenuous. Ironically, even if you make such a comparison. Edge is spammed within buff windows... which is essentially how IR functions. You've only further illustrated yet another reason why DRK is criticised for being a WAR clone. The core inspiration for nearly every aspect of its kit is functionally similarity or downright identical to Warrior no matter how many ways you attempt to spin different comparisons. Hence why it gets the "clone" label while PLD avoids it.

And as Odinel mentioned. You're comparing Heavensward potencies with Shadowbringers. There's no reason to believe had Dark Arts remained, it wouldn't have seen adjustments or direct upgrades.

Forgive a tank class for having a supremly iconic barrier ability *alongside* its also unique mana resource kit that interplays with eachother I guess.

I suppose it's not as good as a party wide mitigation buff that is only used for cutscenes or tapped on because of the drawback of forcing your character to hold still.

I suppose it's not as good as a 90 second cooldown that limits tank gearing options, caps your damage ceiling and only offers 5 free button presses as an identity.

I'll reiterate that in a game almost entirely centralized around damage, mitigation as a defining characteristic isn't a good philosophy. It's why White Mage's identity as the "raw healer" never worked.

Why are we bringing up Passage? Unlike TBN, it isn't the sole defining characteristic of Paladin. The whole issue isn't if ability x is better or worse than ability y. But rather that when stripped down, Dark Knight's core gameplay, downtime and general concept is far too similar with Warrior. The other two tanks, and even jobs outside the tank role have unique characteristics beyond one or two similarities.

[Hierro]

No dig taken, so no worries. I was more so referring to the fact that SB DRK didn’t punish with regards to Darkside the same was HW DRK did. When your mana hit 0 in HW, you lost Darkside and all the buffs it gave. But SB DRK didn’t lose it when they reached 0. It was just...still there. So it removed a bit of complexity and something you had to always keep in mind when considering DA usage from the job.

Did it ever occur to you the punishment never came from being empty but from overflowing instead? That's where the paradigm shift occurred. Sure, you could blow your mana, to always be empty, but then you could never profit off buffs when they came up. Truly, few were able to appreciate the depth of SB DRK, and your post proves my point once again.

[HyoMinPark]

Did it ever occur to you the punishment never came from being empty but from overflowing instead? That's where the paradigm shift occurred. Sure, you could blow your mana, to always be empty, but then you could never profit off buffs when they came up. Truly, few were able to appreciate the depth of SB DRK, and your post proves my point once again.

Apologies, but I don’t find spamming Dark Arts every other GCD very deep. And apparently a lot of other DRKs didn’t either since that was the number one complaint about SB DRK. I fail to see how that proves that they all wanted a WAR copy, though.

[ItMe]

Truly, few were able to appreciate the depth of SB DRK,

Then it's probably a good thing they changed it IMO.

[FallenWings]

They are. That... really isn't up for debate. Every resource boost oGCD is either functionally similar or outright identical. The difference is they aren't the core aspects which define their respective jobs. What defines Gunbreaker; makes it stand out? It's cartridge combo. Burst Strike essentially serves the "Upheaval" equivalent in being a resource dump, and Bloodfest helps maintain flow and constantly due to its alignment with raid buffs. Put another way, it's the gravy you pour on top of the main course not the defining part of the dish. Take away Bloodfest and nothing about Gunbreaker changes in the same sense Mug, Ikkishoten and Barrel Stabilizer wouldn't change the core gameplay philosophy of their respective jobs. They may be more sparse in resources, but the identity wouldn't change because all of those abilities simply compliment an existing foundation. The same cannot be said of DRK, which is heavily reliant on Blood Weapon for an aspect of its gameplay. What's worse is unlike every other job you listed, only Dark Knight has to work twice as hard to produce the same result. Samurai simply presses Ikkishoten and not only continues its rotation normally, but actually has several options. Odinel more or less covered this, so I needn't belabor the point.

You continue to gripe at the notion that Blood Weapon is more instrinsic to DRK anymore than the others are. Ultimately they're all buffs that grant X amount of potency over your core rotation. DRK doesn't stop generating MP and Blood without Bloodweapon so I don't understand your argument. People whine about abilities being similiar and when presented with abilities that are not similiar they still whine about it. Which is it? The same or different but harder? For all the DRKs that love to bemoan and stroke themselves on playing a class with extra steps, they sure don't like the idea of a skill with extra steps.

Samurai generates the resources fast enough to not care about ikkishoten opening up more options because it will always primarily be spent on two things, Kaiten and Shinten/Senei. Samurai gains same resources of the same expenditure options with TBN as a third alternative. How they interact with their kit is irrelevant because they all use the respective resources differently, which is my point against the idea that "hur dur inferior infuriate".

It generally is, yes. Shields are typically better because so few Raid AoEs actually necessitate lasting mitigation. Those that do will be supplemented with additional shielding, Addle and so forth that the drawback of Shake is negligible more often than not. And this assumes you aren't buffing it. As for Divine Veil. It technically came before Shake yet is also inferior due to it requiring a GCD heal and having 5% less potency. Otherwise, yes. They are similar in that they both shield. Shake is simply better in literally every way. Not exactly a good comparison to make here.

How aren't Abyssal Drain and Nascent Flash fairly compared when their core function is identical? They both convert damage dealt into HP. This can't be ignored because it isn't convenient to your argument. Even if we did compare AD to Equilibrium. You then have to consider its synergy with Thrill, which both heals and essentially gives WAR Convalescence. This more or less closes the gap between them even in AoE scenarios, especially because Thrill is free. All that aside, TBN is better compared with Raw for similar reasons. It shares a similar function: mitigating oncoming damage. TBN is strictly better in this regard, but if you dismiss pairing Thrill with Equilibrium, then one becomes free here. Once again narrowing that gap. Simply put, Warrior always has an "extra" CD it can pair for synergy.

The point of the response to point out your pointless argument in regards to Dark Missionary and Shake it Off as if it was an even comparison point being made in a thread in regards to identity. However their balanced ultimately is inconsequential when speaking of the topic of gameplay. Tank press mitigation button for raid wides, each one works differently with seperate drawbacks and pros.

Because every tank has a a direct comparative skill to their respective buttons? TBN is literally the button to compare to Nascent/HoS/Sheltron. You don't compare Equilibirum to Sentinel lol. DRK is not pressing only ad when dealing with specific tankbusters or sequence of high autos. You like to conflate the idea that I'm spinning this for my argument when you can't even make that proper comparison to further your own DRK whining.

You do realize this contradicts your argument above, yes? Earlier you claimed Abyssal Drain shouldn't be compared to Nascent despite their functional similarities yet now you're attempting to compare Edge of Shadow to Fell Cleave all while ignoring Bloodspiller, which is literally Fell Cleave both in functionality and its interaction with Delirium. That's simply disingenuous. Ironically, even if you make such a comparison. Edge is spammed within buff windows... which is essentially how IR functions. You've only further illustrated yet another reason why DRK is criticised for being a WAR clone. The core inspiration for nearly every aspect of its kit is functionally similarity or downright identical to Warrior no matter how many ways you attempt to spin different comparisons. Hence why it gets the "clone" label while PLD avoids it.

And as Odinel mentioned. You're comparing Heavensward potencies with Shadowbringers. There's no reason to believe had Dark Arts remained, it wouldn't have seen adjustments or direct upgrades.

Because my comparison is not a literal 1:1 copy but the importance of a skill being a high impact button within their respective class. Fell Cleave is a point of design in which the Warrior unleahshes a truly powerful built up attack compared to the rest of their other GCDs.

Edge of Shadow not only seen in SoSex as the DRKs tankbuster but follows the similiar vein moreso than Bloodspiller in being the power button to press after building up the resources for it. Bloodspiller is a gain of 250~ potency as a button press and is more infrequent outside of Delirium. Edge is 500 potency that grants Darkside 10% damage buff. It is the DRK equivalent moreso because of those reasons and flavoured for DRK specifically as an oGCD unga bunga mana go damage button.

And I don't know if you play any of these classes but WAR does not use Inner Release in buff windows like DRK uses Edge in buff windows lol. One is by pure coincedence and the importance of Inner Release usage and its cooldown goes against the majority of buff windows whereas Edge is *chosen* to be added to buff windows where it otherwise doesn't *need* to.

Edge/Flood *is* Dark Arts. It serves the same functional purpose of being an oGCD button that expends mana for potency. It just so happens that the potency is seperate from a following action and is larger.

I'll reiterate that in a game almost entirely centralized around damage, mitigation as a defining characteristic isn't a good philosophy. It's why White Mage's identity as the "raw healer" never worked.

Why are we bringing up Passage? Unlike TBN, it isn't the sole defining characteristic of Paladin. The whole issue isn't if ability x is better or worse than ability y. But rather that when stripped down, Dark Knight's core gameplay, downtime and general concept is far too similar with Warrior. The other two tanks, and even jobs outside the tank role have unique characteristics beyond one or two similarities.

Mitigation is a fine idea to have a key skill built around a tank *when it doesn't cost them damage* to which TBN does not and infact aids in damage at high optimization. TBN is a truly powerful skill and should be *one* of the highlights to a TANK classes kit. I don't see how this is a bad thing even in a game built around optimizing damage when it doesnt imepede said damage, can actively aid the production of damage through healer GCDs and is actively used in optimized DRK.

Because since you like to conveniently strip down DRK to just TBN, I've illustrated the idiocy of that line of logic by using PLD and WAR as a comparison.



WAR is strictly only 90 seconds. It is *one-type* of burst job in a game with a majority of sustained damage dealers. Theres always responses complaining about how ShB DRK enjoyers should've gone to WAR when they wanted "burst" despite WAR not giving the type of burst we want.

"HUr dur if you want to play old busy sustained drk why dont you just play gUnBrEaKeR".

Again, I personally enjoy the elective burst that ShB DRK has that no other tank has had. It's a design that is not found in any prior iteration of the tanks save for ye-old ARR/HW WAR and even then, that wasn't nearly as much as ShB DRK. I'll still play DRK in whichever direction decides to veer in next expansion because ultimately, resource usage and edgelord aesthetic is more important than the type of damage. It just so happens my preference is catered to this time around.

[Shin96]

Apologies, but I don’t find spamming Dark Arts every other GCD very deep.

Because it wasn't. In my opinion, it felt like a forced addition in SB because of how MP was handled for DRK. Still, I would have prefered it to exist in some form compared to our current Dark Arts iteration. All in all, HW DRK was an experiment conducted by the developers to see if this level of intricacy was also possible for other tanks at the time, I think.

All in all, as already mentioned, all tanks suffer from this design philosophy but DRK happens to be the most affected by it. This and combined with the level of fatuity with a seemingly bigger interest by making Tanks more accessible to a wider audience of players resulted in a form of simplification. When the developers were faced with the adjustment phase, they must have realized DRK was so far gone that it colluted with their new gameplay system to such an extend they most likely took the safest route and made DRK play like WAR to avoid a wide array of criticism. In their pursuit to make everyone happy they screwed up royally by adding Living Shadow, a DoT with no interaction whatsoever. The addition of this action seems to be damage control because they realized the frantic use of Bloodspiller only would make DRK look even more of a WAR clone, thus upsetting the OG players that loved the HW iteration. Additionally, another proof is Living Dead. You need no further evidence to prove that the developers simply did not care when they reworked the job. It's extremely punishing to some healers and adds little to nothing of variety whatsoever. But what they did was erase the most iconic actions DRK used to offer, by either repurposing them to other tanks or cutting them altogether. With all of this in mind, they probably knew where things were headed so they took the safe approach and removed things just slowly enough until things seem consistent and everyone is used to it. Now you have balance at the expense of fun.

[Hierro]

Apologies, but I don’t find spamming Dark Arts every other GCD very deep. And apparently a lot of other DRKs didn’t either since that was the number one complaint about SB DRK. I fail to see how that proves that they all wanted a WAR copy, though.

Your failure to see is nothing new if not amusing at best, but all you need to do is look at how few the complaints are once WAR-lite was released. If that's what silenced the cries, that's what they were begging for.