Dark Knight where is my Identiy

[Hierro]

I’m not a tank main-

stopped reading right there.

[AC9Breaker]

Its not that big a deal.

[HyoMinPark]

stopped reading right there.

You don’t need to main a job to be able to read and understand criticism threads. I understand enough about tanks to understand their gameplay, and I actually played DRK a lot in HW despite not “maining” it, which is widely considered the best iteration of the job. I stopped playing it in SB because the Dark Arts spam was stupid, and I didn’t like the changes to Darkside management. I preferred actively managing my mana to upkeep it—not it becoming a button you press upon job change and then literally don’t think about. I leveled it in ShB to see how I felt about the changes, and I still dislike the gameplay. It’s a boring WAR wannabe that doesn’t require much thought when it comes to resource management. Which, again, is what I enjoyed about HW DRK.

No one wanted DRK to be a WAR clone. No one asked for that. People wanted to not spam DA so much and for SE to do something about DRK’s immunity. And still do because it is still the worst tank immunity in the game. Your post is inaccurate, and I think misconstrues SB DRK complaints completely.

[Vyrerus]

—not it becoming a button you press upon job change and then literally don’t think about.

Not really a dig at you, but you did turn it off during any phase transition where you could regen more MP than the casting cost and the boss was not targetable. It didn't often get you much, not nearly as much as turning it off during phase transitions of the same sort in HW, but it was a thing in a few fights.

___________

The real issue with DRK in its life is that it has always been fun and required high effort. Not just from the DRK, but from the healer to maintain to DRK. The big deal is that you put in all that effort and it gets outclassed in every expansion except for the one it was released in, but only if you cared about Limit Break concerns or really needed the -10% INT from original Delirium on the boss (Which is hilariously punished Monk of all things).

DRK has had to be inferior to other tanks every expansion except the one it came out in, with one exception being WAR at 4.0 launch, but only in the sense of ease of use. WAR still had higher DPS for less effort, and any bad things WAR had going for it at the start were quickly reversed.

In SHB I find myself liking neither of them, the only thing holding me over on them being my memory of their glorious pasts. PLD is truly fun for the first time, to me, though that mainly stems from its OP nature. GNB is fun, because they designed current tanking around it, and let it have the most fun combo on almost any job.

They take one GCD combo away from DRK per expansion, so in Endwalker we should be down to zero combos. :^) Gonna be sooooo fun

[HyoMinPark]

Not really a dig at you, but you did turn it off during any phase transition where you could regen more MP than the casting cost and the boss was not targetable. It didn't often get you much, not nearly as much as turning it off during phase transitions of the same sort in HW, but it was a thing in a few fights.

No dig taken, so no worries. I was more so referring to the fact that SB DRK didn’t punish with regards to Darkside the same was HW DRK did. When your mana hit 0 in HW, you lost Darkside and all the buffs it gave. But SB DRK didn’t lose it when they reached 0. It was just...still there. So it removed a bit of complexity and something you had to always keep in mind when considering DA usage from the job.

[FallenWings]

Except that it isn't just Delirium being functionally identical. Several aspect of DRK's gameplay mirrors WAR in some way or another. Blood Weapon, for example, is essentially a weaker Infuriate. Through five GCDs, you're given 50 gauge and 3,000 MP except you have to play against a finicky server tick, potentially causing your fifth GCD to miss the effect. Warrior, on the other hand, simply pushes a single button. And because Inner Chaos is guaranteed to DCrit, they achieve similar damage output despite DRK having to work significantly harder.

So by that logic, Bloodfest from GNB is a weaker Infuriate because it's 90 seconds and only opens up 2 more Burst Strikes(GNB Fell Cleave) and thus is a candidate for being called a WAR Clone. Samurai's Ikkishoten, Ninja's Mug, Machinist's Barrel Stabellizer are also clones of Infuriate because they generate resources instantly and thus are WAR clones?

Nevermind that we complain about Delirium being too mechanically similiar so when a comparative skill is mechanically different, it is also a bad thing? Bloodweapon again, still serves its primary function of being a resource gain buff and not only acquires blood for BS/QS/LS it also generates 3k mana for TBN/Edge/Flood. The number of resources gained being similiar is but a balance decision at the end of the day.

Going further down the list Dark Missionary is a weaker Shake, both in the latter having a potential buff added and not having to play a guessing game on damage type. Abyssal Drain is laughably inferior to Nascent Flash in every aspect, having nearly four times the CD length in spite of being weaker.

Heart of Light must be a weaker shake. Nevermind that these buffs excel in different areas like how shell ones like SiO and DV(oh no! A copy of WARs SiO!) are better for single instances of damage below your max hp and DM/HoL are greater for catching 2 instances of damage within its duration and instances of raid wide damage that far exceed max hp. But I guess all tanks who need raid wide mit are now WAR clones. Abyssal Drain is not even a direct comparison to Nascent Flash lol. It would be Equilibrium versus AD, the latter of which being weaker at ST but better at AoE. TBN is compared to Nascent and the former achieves a higher "heal" thanks to its duration and lack of required Inner Chaos being used with it.

You mention resource management yet... ShB DRK's iteration is the least resource intense the job has ever been. You essentially only pay attention to your MP under two thresholds: Is it above 9,000 or below 3,000? Anything in between doesn't matter outside burst windows. You ideally want to enter every buff window with roughly 9k and then let it build back up for TBN if necessary. As a result, this makes Dark Arts v2 incredibly passive... not unlike a certain other tank whose buff has become so easy to maintain you actively need to go out of your way for it to fall off. Keep in mind, everything I said only matters at an optimized level. For the vast majority of players, Edge of Shadow is little more than a spammable Upheaval. Which brings up an important point. Ever notice how Upheaval is rarely mentioned when identifying Warrior? That's because it's largely a forgettable skill you simply press. Fell Cleave defines the job. Edge of Shadow is similar; it's entirely forgettable. You'll simply press it, however due to the passive nature of Dark Arts, it lacks impact. Unfortunately, Dark Knight has no "Fell Cleave" to fall back on.

The change on the rate of gain for MP is subjective at the end. There are those who prefer stockpiling and using them in a controlled manner. And there are those who prefer to babysit a bar that won't stop overfilling with only a 140 ogcd pot button to keep it down. That's at the end of the day an opinion on which is more fun, not superior or inferior. I personally see Edge/Flood as oGCD Fell Cleaves/Decimates but better because they don't have the draw back of costing a GCD. To me they have huge impact as button presses because of the aforementioned potencies and MP costs. They very much define DRK rotation and optimization. If people can see Holy Spirit and Holy Circle as ranged magical Fell Cleave/Decimate then the same regard should be given to Edge/Flood.

And that brings us to the only truly unique and identifying attribute DRK has: The Blackest Night. A cool ability, and undeniably better than any of its counterparts. Except being defined by one mitigation tool in a game centered almost entirely around damage is, well... underwhelming.

Forgive a tank class for having a supremly iconic barrier ability *alongside* its also unique mana resource kit that interplays with eachother I guess.

I suppose it's not as good as a party wide mitigation buff that is only used for cutscenes or tapped on because of the drawback of forcing your character to hold still.

I suppose it's not as good as a 90 second cooldown that limits tank gearing options, caps your damage ceiling and only offers 5 free button presses as an identity.

----

Blood, Quietus and Spiller came in SB. No one batted an eye then and the current changes is not exclusive to DRK but tanks as a whole for a more symmetrical balanced state. PLD gains the same static amount of resources for every Requis. GNB pretends to have management. On the whole DRK retains key skills and their respective functions. Several actions just changed in numbers for the sake of balance.

Like I've said before, if people find pressing 1-2-3 more often and 10% faster its up to them lol. Having high apm means nothing when the majority of it is spamming a low potency button over and over(See Machinist).

Ninja doesn't double weave and no class with 2.1 or lower GCD speed has forced double weaves. SE deliberately designed away from that as well with current GCD Mudra ninja because of how restrictive it is and how unfun it was to play with how often it clipped. It's also a big complaint to the Dark Arts spam from before. In HW it worked because Dark Arts wasn't eaten by literally every GCD other than Hard Slash with Scourge also as a buffer. Again, I personally prefer quad double weave burst over 1-2-3 at 110% speed but I wouldn't be against a kit that involves both at different intervals.

WAR only focuses on it's GCDs and the way it plays around Nascent Flash, Infuriate reduction and charges reflects that. DRK is primarily focused around it's oGCDs with its GCDS supplementing that. GNB can also be reduced to just 1-2-3 only outside of every minute burst. It's regarded as the easy to optimize tank class along WAR and with reason because it's not anymore special than the other tanks. It shares an Infuriate, Fell Cleave/Decimate equivalent but no one has given it the same CLONE conclusion.

[Nivarea]

see post above

I'm not sure you've understood what I've was trying to say, but that might be because I was a bit unfocused on my argument, so my fault here.

While yes, it's true that DRK already shared similar skills with WAR, the problem now is that too much of the kit is far too similar. That's just part of the problem tho, and I pointed it a bit, the cement of why DRK and WAR feels so similar is the philosophy behind, being all about the burst. Of course DRK and WAR have differences, but if the differences boil to "WAR has forced direct-crit burst and skills" on one hand and "DRK has oGCDs" on the other (simplification ofc, but still true), that's not enough in my opinion because the philosophy is the same : put everything in the burst window and wait boringly in downtimes between those two windows. It boils down to that, the combination of both philosophy behind the job and too much of identical or similar skills. If it was just one or the other, that wouldn't be a problem. That's was the case in Stormblood, there were some skills that were similar that you pointed (less so than in ShB), but a philosophy completely different, so there was no problem on that point.

That's also why GNB and PLD, despite sharing some similatiries (like Bloodfest compared to Infuriate/BloodWeapon or Requiescat being the OG spam 5 time your highest potency skill) with DRK and WAR, are not considered clones : the philosophy behind is different. PLD and GNB, for one, have a more rigidly structured rotation to follow, but both of those rotation function in different ways, one with a 3 part 1mn rotation with a physical damage phase, a magical phase and a physical downtime phase, and the other switching between machinguning skills every 30sec, followed by rebuilding ressources. Also, the other key difference is that one is more burst oriented (GNB) while the other is more sustained damage wise. Of course, GNB has more sustained damage than DRK and WAR, and of course that doesn't mean that PLD don't have a burst, but it's far less pronounced. The philosophy behind those jobs are sufficiently distinct, despite the homogenization tanks went through during ShB.

I agree tho that yes, I would like to see more differences even for those two. I'm not a huge fan of the homogenization that all tanks (and well, to an extent all jobs) got this expansion, I was fine with tanks having more cut clean specialities, given they had weaknesses to compensate (which was a problem in both HW and StB, with one Tank being the best at basicaly almost everything with WAR then PLD).

Finaly mea culpa for NIN, that was a mistake on my part here from what I remembered, you're right, no double weave.

[ForteNightshade]

So by that logic, Bloodfest from GNB is a weaker Infuriate because it's 90 seconds and only opens up 2 more Burst Strikes(GNB Fell Cleave) and thus is a candidate for being called a WAR Clone. Samurai's Ikkishoten, Ninja's Mug, Machinist's Barrel Stabellizer are also clones of Infuriate because they generate resources instantly and thus are WAR clones?

Nevermind that we complain about Delirium being too mechanically similiar so when a comparative skill is mechanically different, it is also a bad thing? Bloodweapon again, still serves its primary function of being a resource gain buff and not only acquires blood for BS/QS/LS it also generates 3k mana for TBN/Edge/Flood. The number of resources gained being similiar is but a balance decision at the end of the day.

They are. That... really isn't up for debate. Every resource boost oGCD is either functionally similar or outright identical. The difference is they aren't the core aspects which define their respective jobs. What defines Gunbreaker; makes it stand out? It's cartridge combo. Burst Strike essentially serves the "Upheaval" equivalent in being a resource dump, and Bloodfest helps maintain flow and constantly due to its alignment with raid buffs. Put another way, it's the gravy you pour on top of the main course not the defining part of the dish. Take away Bloodfest and nothing about Gunbreaker changes in the same sense Mug, Ikkishoten and Barrel Stabilizer wouldn't change the core gameplay philosophy of their respective jobs. They may be more sparse in resources, but the identity wouldn't change because all of those abilities simply compliment an existing foundation. The same cannot be said of DRK, which is heavily reliant on Blood Weapon for an aspect of its gameplay. What's worse is unlike every other job you listed, only Dark Knight has to work twice as hard to produce the same result. Samurai simply presses Ikkishoten and not only continues its rotation normally, but actually has several options. Odinel more or less covered this, so I needn't belabor the point.

Heart of Light must be a weaker shake. Nevermind that these buffs excel in different areas like how shell ones like SiO and DV(oh no! A copy of WARs SiO!) are better for single instances of damage below your max hp and DM/HoL are greater for catching 2 instances of damage within its duration and instances of raid wide damage that far exceed max hp. But I guess all tanks who need raid wide mit are now WAR clones. Abyssal Drain is not even a direct comparison to Nascent Flash lol. It would be Equilibrium versus AD, the latter of which being weaker at ST but better at AoE. TBN is compared to Nascent and the former achieves a higher "heal" thanks to its duration and lack of required Inner Chaos being used with it.

It generally is, yes. Shields are typically better because so few Raid AoEs actually necessitate lasting mitigation. Those that do will be supplemented with additional shielding, Addle and so forth that the drawback of Shake is negligible more often than not. And this assumes you aren't buffing it. As for Divine Veil. It technically came before Shake yet is also inferior due to it requiring a GCD heal and having 5% less potency. Otherwise, yes. They are similar in that they both shield. Shake is simply better in literally every way. Not exactly a good comparison to make here.

How aren't Abyssal Drain and Nascent Flash fairly compared when their core function is identical? They both convert damage dealt into HP. This can't be ignored because it isn't convenient to your argument. Even if we did compare AD to Equilibrium. You then have to consider its synergy with Thrill, which both heals and essentially gives WAR Convalescence. This more or less closes the gap between them even in AoE scenarios, especially because Thrill is free. All that aside, TBN is better compared with Raw for similar reasons. It shares a similar function: mitigating oncoming damage. TBN is strictly better in this regard, but if you dismiss pairing Thrill with Equilibrium, then one becomes free here. Once again narrowing that gap. Simply put, Warrior always has an "extra" CD it can pair for synergy.

The change on the rate of gain for MP is subjective at the end. There are those who prefer stockpiling and using them in a controlled manner. And there are those who prefer to babysit a bar that won't stop overfilling with only a 140 ogcd pot button to keep it down. That's at the end of the day an opinion on which is more fun, not superior or inferior. I personally see Edge/Flood as oGCD Fell Cleaves/Decimates but better because they don't have the draw back of costing a GCD. To me they have huge impact as button presses because of the aforementioned potencies and MP costs. They very much define DRK rotation and optimization. If people can see Holy Spirit and Holy Circle as ranged magical Fell Cleave/Decimate then the same regard should be given to Edge/Flood.

You do realize this contradicts your argument above, yes? Earlier you claimed Abyssal Drain shouldn't be compared to Nascent despite their functional similarities yet now you're attempting to compare Edge of Shadow to Fell Cleave all while ignoring Bloodspiller, which is literally Fell Cleave both in functionality and its interaction with Delirium. That's simply disingenuous. Ironically, even if you make such a comparison. Edge is spammed within buff windows... which is essentially how IR functions. You've only further illustrated yet another reason why DRK is criticised for being a WAR clone. The core inspiration for nearly every aspect of its kit is functionally similarity or downright identical to Warrior no matter how many ways you attempt to spin different comparisons. Hence why it gets the "clone" label while PLD avoids it.

And as Odinel mentioned. You're comparing Heavensward potencies with Shadowbringers. There's no reason to believe had Dark Arts remained, it wouldn't have seen adjustments or direct upgrades.

Forgive a tank class for having a supremly iconic barrier ability *alongside* its also unique mana resource kit that interplays with eachother I guess.

I suppose it's not as good as a party wide mitigation buff that is only used for cutscenes or tapped on because of the drawback of forcing your character to hold still.

I suppose it's not as good as a 90 second cooldown that limits tank gearing options, caps your damage ceiling and only offers 5 free button presses as an identity.

I'll reiterate that in a game almost entirely centralized around damage, mitigation as a defining characteristic isn't a good philosophy. It's why White Mage's identity as the "raw healer" never worked.

Why are we bringing up Passage? Unlike TBN, it isn't the sole defining characteristic of Paladin. The whole issue isn't if ability x is better or worse than ability y. But rather that when stripped down, Dark Knight's core gameplay, downtime and general concept is far too similar with Warrior. The other two tanks, and even jobs outside the tank role have unique characteristics beyond one or two similarities.

[FallenWings]

They are. That... really isn't up for debate. Every resource boost oGCD is either functionally similar or outright identical. The difference is they aren't the core aspects which define their respective jobs. What defines Gunbreaker; makes it stand out? It's cartridge combo. Burst Strike essentially serves the "Upheaval" equivalent in being a resource dump, and Bloodfest helps maintain flow and constantly due to its alignment with raid buffs. Put another way, it's the gravy you pour on top of the main course not the defining part of the dish. Take away Bloodfest and nothing about Gunbreaker changes in the same sense Mug, Ikkishoten and Barrel Stabilizer wouldn't change the core gameplay philosophy of their respective jobs. They may be more sparse in resources, but the identity wouldn't change because all of those abilities simply compliment an existing foundation. The same cannot be said of DRK, which is heavily reliant on Blood Weapon for an aspect of its gameplay. What's worse is unlike every other job you listed, only Dark Knight has to work twice as hard to produce the same result. Samurai simply presses Ikkishoten and not only continues its rotation normally, but actually has several options. Odinel more or less covered this, so I needn't belabor the point.

You continue to gripe at the notion that Blood Weapon is more instrinsic to DRK anymore than the others are. Ultimately they're all buffs that grant X amount of potency over your core rotation. DRK doesn't stop generating MP and Blood without Bloodweapon so I don't understand your argument. People whine about abilities being similiar and when presented with abilities that are not similiar they still whine about it. Which is it? The same or different but harder? For all the DRKs that love to bemoan and stroke themselves on playing a class with extra steps, they sure don't like the idea of a skill with extra steps.

Samurai generates the resources fast enough to not care about ikkishoten opening up more options because it will always primarily be spent on two things, Kaiten and Shinten/Senei. Samurai gains same resources of the same expenditure options with TBN as a third alternative. How they interact with their kit is irrelevant because they all use the respective resources differently, which is my point against the idea that "hur dur inferior infuriate".

It generally is, yes. Shields are typically better because so few Raid AoEs actually necessitate lasting mitigation. Those that do will be supplemented with additional shielding, Addle and so forth that the drawback of Shake is negligible more often than not. And this assumes you aren't buffing it. As for Divine Veil. It technically came before Shake yet is also inferior due to it requiring a GCD heal and having 5% less potency. Otherwise, yes. They are similar in that they both shield. Shake is simply better in literally every way. Not exactly a good comparison to make here.

How aren't Abyssal Drain and Nascent Flash fairly compared when their core function is identical? They both convert damage dealt into HP. This can't be ignored because it isn't convenient to your argument. Even if we did compare AD to Equilibrium. You then have to consider its synergy with Thrill, which both heals and essentially gives WAR Convalescence. This more or less closes the gap between them even in AoE scenarios, especially because Thrill is free. All that aside, TBN is better compared with Raw for similar reasons. It shares a similar function: mitigating oncoming damage. TBN is strictly better in this regard, but if you dismiss pairing Thrill with Equilibrium, then one becomes free here. Once again narrowing that gap. Simply put, Warrior always has an "extra" CD it can pair for synergy.

The point of the response to point out your pointless argument in regards to Dark Missionary and Shake it Off as if it was an even comparison point being made in a thread in regards to identity. However their balanced ultimately is inconsequential when speaking of the topic of gameplay. Tank press mitigation button for raid wides, each one works differently with seperate drawbacks and pros.

Because every tank has a a direct comparative skill to their respective buttons? TBN is literally the button to compare to Nascent/HoS/Sheltron. You don't compare Equilibirum to Sentinel lol. DRK is not pressing only ad when dealing with specific tankbusters or sequence of high autos. You like to conflate the idea that I'm spinning this for my argument when you can't even make that proper comparison to further your own DRK whining.

You do realize this contradicts your argument above, yes? Earlier you claimed Abyssal Drain shouldn't be compared to Nascent despite their functional similarities yet now you're attempting to compare Edge of Shadow to Fell Cleave all while ignoring Bloodspiller, which is literally Fell Cleave both in functionality and its interaction with Delirium. That's simply disingenuous. Ironically, even if you make such a comparison. Edge is spammed within buff windows... which is essentially how IR functions. You've only further illustrated yet another reason why DRK is criticised for being a WAR clone. The core inspiration for nearly every aspect of its kit is functionally similarity or downright identical to Warrior no matter how many ways you attempt to spin different comparisons. Hence why it gets the "clone" label while PLD avoids it.

And as Odinel mentioned. You're comparing Heavensward potencies with Shadowbringers. There's no reason to believe had Dark Arts remained, it wouldn't have seen adjustments or direct upgrades.

Because my comparison is not a literal 1:1 copy but the importance of a skill being a high impact button within their respective class. Fell Cleave is a point of design in which the Warrior unleahshes a truly powerful built up attack compared to the rest of their other GCDs.

Edge of Shadow not only seen in SoSex as the DRKs tankbuster but follows the similiar vein moreso than Bloodspiller in being the power button to press after building up the resources for it. Bloodspiller is a gain of 250~ potency as a button press and is more infrequent outside of Delirium. Edge is 500 potency that grants Darkside 10% damage buff. It is the DRK equivalent moreso because of those reasons and flavoured for DRK specifically as an oGCD unga bunga mana go damage button.

And I don't know if you play any of these classes but WAR does not use Inner Release in buff windows like DRK uses Edge in buff windows lol. One is by pure coincedence and the importance of Inner Release usage and its cooldown goes against the majority of buff windows whereas Edge is *chosen* to be added to buff windows where it otherwise doesn't *need* to.

Edge/Flood *is* Dark Arts. It serves the same functional purpose of being an oGCD button that expends mana for potency. It just so happens that the potency is seperate from a following action and is larger.

I'll reiterate that in a game almost entirely centralized around damage, mitigation as a defining characteristic isn't a good philosophy. It's why White Mage's identity as the "raw healer" never worked.

Why are we bringing up Passage? Unlike TBN, it isn't the sole defining characteristic of Paladin. The whole issue isn't if ability x is better or worse than ability y. But rather that when stripped down, Dark Knight's core gameplay, downtime and general concept is far too similar with Warrior. The other two tanks, and even jobs outside the tank role have unique characteristics beyond one or two similarities.

Mitigation is a fine idea to have a key skill built around a tank *when it doesn't cost them damage* to which TBN does not and infact aids in damage at high optimization. TBN is a truly powerful skill and should be *one* of the highlights to a TANK classes kit. I don't see how this is a bad thing even in a game built around optimizing damage when it doesnt imepede said damage, can actively aid the production of damage through healer GCDs and is actively used in optimized DRK.

Because since you like to conveniently strip down DRK to just TBN, I've illustrated the idiocy of that line of logic by using PLD and WAR as a comparison.



WAR is strictly only 90 seconds. It is *one-type* of burst job in a game with a majority of sustained damage dealers. Theres always responses complaining about how ShB DRK enjoyers should've gone to WAR when they wanted "burst" despite WAR not giving the type of burst we want.

"HUr dur if you want to play old busy sustained drk why dont you just play gUnBrEaKeR".

Again, I personally enjoy the elective burst that ShB DRK has that no other tank has had. It's a design that is not found in any prior iteration of the tanks save for ye-old ARR/HW WAR and even then, that wasn't nearly as much as ShB DRK. I'll still play DRK in whichever direction decides to veer in next expansion because ultimately, resource usage and edgelord aesthetic is more important than the type of damage. It just so happens my preference is catered to this time around.

[Hierro]

No dig taken, so no worries. I was more so referring to the fact that SB DRK didn’t punish with regards to Darkside the same was HW DRK did. When your mana hit 0 in HW, you lost Darkside and all the buffs it gave. But SB DRK didn’t lose it when they reached 0. It was just...still there. So it removed a bit of complexity and something you had to always keep in mind when considering DA usage from the job.

Did it ever occur to you the punishment never came from being empty but from overflowing instead? That's where the paradigm shift occurred. Sure, you could blow your mana, to always be empty, but then you could never profit off buffs when they came up. Truly, few were able to appreciate the depth of SB DRK, and your post proves my point once again.