Death unto Dawn page up

[KizuyaKatogami]

For the longest time I thought Haurchefant was a serial killer. He creeped me out no end, reminded me of real life guys who have had me deeply unsettled in the past and I really wanted to keep far, far away from him. He became less creepy over time to the point I was not happy when he died, but I have no doubt in another life his tale was quite a nefarious one.

Conversely, I've never thought G'raha was a serial killer and my daughter adores him so he has a pass for now. If he ever upsets her, however, I'm coming for him.



As for Death unto Dawn, part of my brain wants us, the WoL/D, to die. Sort of. But I suspect it's likely more lateral than literal and I'm not currently invested one way or another.

If they were going to do that the most optimal moment probably would’ve been either with Emet or Elidibus, it’s something i had actually been hoping for but guess they’re not interested in that :/(your last point i mean)

[KizuyaKatogami]

I mean, the result of him still doing his job is that he spends long sections of Stormblood's story offscreen because he can't teleport like everyone else does. That's a pretty big consequence when compared to Y'shtola's blindness. All that has meant is that she has to burn aether to see, which is absolutely not going to cost her anything during the scope of FFXIV's story.

There's also Minfilia, who gave up her body and soul to Hydaelyn. And while the writers took great pains to distance everything Minfilia-related from the revelation that Hydaelyn is a primal, it's not hard to believe that she was tempered all the way up to her "suicide via passing the torch" moment. And the result of that whole mess is that the writers barely used her at all, and even took steps to write their way out of using her (100 years have passed since the Flood of Light, reincarnations in name only, the aforementioned passing of the torch story focusing entirely on the character receiving the torch, etc...).

I don't think I'll ever not be bitter about that, lol. I suppose it's a bit hypocritical of me to want them to hit the undo button on that one—I'm over here advocating that they hit the redo button on the Exarch's death, after all.

If it makes you feel better i know how that feels. I’ll never not be bitter about the ending of ShB lol.

[Mansion]

I don't mind G'raha in principle, I think he has been a more interesting expansion companion than Lyse for instance. The whole "thirst" was more of an external / community meme, although he tends to lean a bit too much into fan service as of 5.3.
But I do think he has outlived his scenaristic purpose, to the point where even if we know the writers are far ahead in the story planning, it feels like they pre-retconned him to survive 5.3 and get shoehorned in the story from there on, because of his succes within the playerbase. Yet I'm curious about how the character can develop in 5.5, now that he's going to be around for a while. Most of the scions had mildly-good to great character development with the expansions (the best ones in my opinion being Alphinaud in 3.0 and Alisaie throughout Stormblood). So we could have new characters brought in, but we can still expand on existing companions, like Estinien as it looks like his Trust system addition could indicate he'll be part of our adventure in 6.0. I think Y'shtola is getting a bit stale, so expanding on her (her past if we visit Sharlayan for instance) would be great.

Back to 5.5, I'm not sure it has to be impactful. 4.5 was quite boring, I remember 3.5 being a bit lenghty, and same for 2.5 apart from the very end of it. If anything in the current situation, it might just get increasingly frustrating regarding Zenos and Fandaniel, who are not that exciting to say the least.

[LineageRazor]

But then where’s the threat? Where’s the suspense of what’s happening to them if we know they’re going to be okay. A story shouldn’t be one-sided, especially because in the case of ShB, in order to keep a certain character alive, they had to rely on half-assed plot armor which completely contradicted the story elements. If it’s something that makes them contradict their own points they wrote in the story, then that should be dealt with. Look at HW. The deaths were impactful to many but it wasn’t forced or anything like that. There were actually consequences for the protags that shaped them. ShB has none of that and it’s no wonder ShB also has less overall character development barring a couple of the scions (Thancred and Alphinaud most notably).

Let's be clear on one thing: the main characters' plot armor is not invincible. We've already seen lasting, meaningful changes in the cast - and death is only one kind of thing that is a lasting, meaningful change. Papalymo is one example that actually is a death, and he was one of the few main characters we have that actually dates back to the original 1.0 version of the game. Some non-death significant changes include Raubahn's departure as Flame General of the Immortal Flames; the guy was basically the face of the Grand Company. Another example, Yda has left the Scions, and is now a side character.

The fact that new characters have JOINED the Scions (and not died immediately, as Moenbreyda did) is significant, as well. The group is fluid and changing.

The plot armor around the Scions is not as thick as you seem to think it is, and I never go into an expansion without some concern that some of them might not make it out unscathed. At the same time, to suggest that some percentage of them need to die periodically for things to be realistic is silly. These folks are the best of the best, and it's hardly surprising that they are difficult to take down. That said, Y'shtola's chronic brushes with death are more than a little eye-rolling, I'll grant.

The only character I know will never die is the WoL, for obvious reasons. Anyone else? Even Y'shtola? Fair game. Do I think it's LIKELY they'll die? Not really. Do I think it would be absurd if none of them die? No, I don't think that either - they're tenacious bastards, and for them to pull through even against overwhelming odds is what heroic fantasy is all about.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Let's be clear on one thing: the main characters' plot armor is not invincible. We've already seen lasting, meaningful changes in the cast - and death is only one kind of thing that is a lasting, meaningful change. Papalymo is one example that actually is a death, and he was one of the few main characters we have that actually dates back to the original 1.0 version of the game. Some non-death significant changes include Raubahn's departure as Flame General of the Immortal Flames; the guy was basically the face of the Grand Company. Another example, Yda has left the Scions, and is now a side character.

The fact that new characters have JOINED the Scions (and not died immediately, as Moenbreyda did) is significant, as well. The group is fluid and changing.

The plot armor around the Scions is not as thick as you seem to think it is, and I never go into an expansion without some concern that some of them might not make it out unscathed. At the same time, to suggest that some percentage of them need to die periodically for things to be realistic is silly. These folks are the best of the best, and it's hardly surprising that they are difficult to take down. That said, Y'shtola's chronic brushes with death are more than a little eye-rolling, I'll grant.

The only character I know will never die is the WoL, for obvious reasons. Anyone else? Even Y'shtola? Fair game. Do I think it's LIKELY they'll die? Not really. Do I think it would be absurd if none of them die? No, I don't think that either - they're tenacious bastards, and for them to pull through even against overwhelming odds is what heroic fantasy is all about.

Okay,this is where i’ll heavily disagree. Yes they’re strong, but the fact of the matter is in ShB we face foes on a completely different scale than ever before, yet they’re all fine even when they’re literally ticking time bombs. They’re plot armor is pretty huge. They literally have the time to go around Norvrandt again despite their whole, on a time limit problem. Graha probably has more plot armor than Yshtola now seeing what happened in both 5.0 and 5.3. It’s not about heroic fantasy it’s about keeping the plot consistent and coherent.What’s silly is them being able to easily solve every single problem that’s come their way this expansion without any sort of consequence.What was one impactful consequence for the protags this expansion?

[Iscah]

What was one impactful consequence for the protags this expansion?

Why do we need "impactful consequences" at every turn? They can just be there as characters. I enjoyed seeing them interact and have some fun moments in the story, and there was serious emotional development as well. Thancred and Ryne went through a lot, and Tesleen's death had a big impact on Alisaie. G'raha waited a hundred years to save us, and nearly lost his chance - and sure it turned out okay in the end, but you can still appreciate just how much he went through along the way.

The story isn't somehow a waste of time just because nobody got killed or physically injured along the way.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Why do we need "impactful consequences" at every turn? They can just be there as characters. I enjoyed seeing them interact and have some fun moments in the story, and there was serious emotional development as well. Thancred and Ryne went through a lot, and Tesleen's death had a big impact on Alisaie. G'raha waited a hundred years to save us, and nearly lost his chance - and sure it turned out okay in the end, but you can still appreciate just how much he went through along the way.

The story isn't somehow a waste of time just because nobody got killed or physically injured along the way.

Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.I'm not asking for impactful consequences at "every turn". But if an expansion is advertised the way it was, again that being dark and gritty, it really should have consequences and not just be wholesome moments simulator."

[Iscah]

Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas.

Not talking about her constantly is not the same thing as forgetting her.

Of course it's going to have a lasting impact even if she's not dwelling on it.

[GoldStarz]

Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.

The fact that we have a semi-functional cure for Tempering can be directly traced back to Alisae's connection to Tesleen and the others stationed at The Inn at Journey's Head and her wanting to heal them from their corruption by the Sin Eaters in 5.X, what are you even talking about?

[WhiteArchmage]

Considering it’s the expansion labeled as the grittiest and darkest of them all against the strongest foes so far, the expansion should have impactful consequences. Having a one-sided story just makes things dull. If people want a wholesome cute story there’s other games for that. Tesleen’s impact on Alisaie lasted about until after Holminster switch where after she was completely forgotten about in the next areas. Graha’s waiting a hundred years development comes off as really shallow to me considering a lot of his development is based around his plot armor which we see numerous times.

She talks about Tesleen as a Trust in Malika's Well, too. She has a dialogue about doing it for Tesleen, so she's not forgotten at all. It's sort of like the Ga Bu thing, just because he's not constantly mentioned doesn't mean the narrative has forgotten about him. Heck, her stubborn (and succesful) attempts to cure Halric are implied to be because of her, too, since Tesleen gave her life to give him more time to live.

These moments ARE impactful for the characters, even if they're not mentioned constantly, like how Alphinaud's failure with the Crystal Braves is still influencing his actions even if they haven't been mentioned since HW.

I'd like to see the Scions survive 6.0, but then go their separate ways. They can be brought back into the story if needed at times (sort of like Cid and Nero) but they wouldn't be our adventuring party anymore.

And I say this as someone whose favourite character is a Scion. I also agree that there's probably not much they can do with them post-EW, but I'd like to see them get nice retirements and be happy.

I agree with this so much, especially to make room for the "B-team" Scions: Coultenet and Hoary Boulder had their own off-screen adventures in Thavnair and even completed the Trials of the Brave (!) while escorting F'Lahminn. They're our perfect guides to Thavnair. Poor Arenvald has been side-lined to the SMN lvl 80 quest...