Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Bright-Flower]

They really don't seem to make much use of such an approach, even though they should, IMO. I was disappointed they didn't use this kind of approach with Hades phase 1, and it certainly would've helped make Zenos's fights a touch less dull.

I'm not sure I'd want it in a trial or any other multi player fight, where you're supposed to lose. People would just then die on purpose right away and that also kills any tension.

I think it works best in single player scenarios where you don't neccisarily know you're 'supposed' to lose, and so you give it your all trying to hold on and then get overwhelmed.

[Lauront]

Only if you allow it from the outset, tbh. Granted, that then means it would follow the model of reach X% HP threshold before it came into play, which you mentioned with Zenos, but I'd have liked to see a boss modeled after the god of death do something like that. They ended up doing something similar with Elidibus, where for once the "mash X button" mechanic was actually intense rather than lighthearted facerolling, but I believe it was a missed opportunity not to do it with the Ascian who represents an avatar of the Underworld.

[FrightfulNight]

I agree with this. On the one hand I can see why they would want to put both 'free province from the empire' stories in one expansion but the region split ultimately diluted and hurt BOTH halves IMO.

If it had just been Gyr Abania, we could have explored different factions of the resistance, with different goals and methods, and finding ways to unite them to work together. We could have had Lyse actually taking on more responsibility over time and having a better character arc instead of her becoming leader feeling unearned. We could have explored concepts like the Skulls in much greater depth. Gotten Ala Mhigo as an actual city maybe.

Hell they even made the main city of the expansion Kugane HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER. They haven't even really made use of Kugane as a neutral place yet, it could have made a good place for say the negotiations between Doma and the Empire in 4.2. But nope. It's basically just remained a pit stop on our way to Othard as far as the MSQ was concerned, which is disappointing because the city itself is pretty cool.

I am holding out hope with Thravnir and Garlemald being two of the confirmed locations for Endwalker, that either in patch 5.5 or 5.55 that we actually do make use of the embassies there to lay the ground work or something, like maybe whatever happens with the towers gets so bad that we have to flee Eorzea for a place not afflicted with them at the moment until we can find a way to shut them down, since Doma also has one then this will be Kugane, where we work with Thravanian officials and maybe even some surviving Populares (or just people just opposed to Zenos) who are working on granting diplomatic permission to enter Thravnir. This would also be a call back to 2.55 with us ending up at Camp Dragonhead before going to Ishgard proper after the bloody banquet. Just anything to make it worth it because right now Kugane has some of the most missed potential for a main hub city.

[Vyrerus]

Zenos' fight

His HP isn't inflated, actually. You're literally dealing 90% less damage than you're normally capable of, and you are missing an awful lot. Plus there's two phases to both fights. They both start out with allies aiding you, and then Zenos does Concentrativity after a set amount of time, and it knocks them out of the fight, but you remain (And there's dialogue going on during too).

If he were using his real power in either fight, then you wouldn't really get to fight at all. You'd die to the first swing of Unmoving Troika, unless you were a tank.

I think the first battle presents the situation well. Zenos is bored, and he's just watching you to see how strong you are, while setting out some simple attacks. You fail to impress him, so he ends it and calls you pathetic. Though he did break a sword on you. Which is why you get to live, because you're not worth drawing another one on.

The second fight you're actually dealing somewhat normal damage for the first half while Yugiri is there, and she LB3s him(and it only does 14.3k). He then powers up, and it turns into the same fight as before. You can barely land hits on him, let alone scratch him, and if he didn't choose to just end it, then you would die before you got him half way down. He also does way more attacks than the first time around. Lightless flames, tangible copies of himself, Ame-no-Hibakiri, and loads more of Vein-Splitter. The fighting area is a lot smaller, so if you're not careful you will take damage, and you can duty fail that one relatively easily.

The first fight is a superior foe deigning to see what you're made of, and the second fight is you showing that you've moved up quite a ways but still not enough.

In Zenos's final fight with you, before he mantles Shinryu, he uses his full power. It is enough, and I have seen people fail to it. Should you live through all that he brings to bear, at the end of the fight he takes a book out of 80/180 Behemoth's book and mingles auto attacks with repeated castings of Concentrativity over and over until one of you is dead. He could have done that or anything else in the earlier fights to kill you.

It's much better conveyed and done than the Ran'jit fight in SHB. In that one, especially on tank, Ran'jit definitely feels like someone you could kill if the game would allow it (Lyna be like, "We're overmatched! 10 seconds in and he's at 80%). They don't because they have further narrative use for him, but unlike in the Zenos fight where he uses Concentrativity first to remove people and it deals 80% of your HP, Ran'jit instead uses some overblown version of Raiton one at a time, and then has Gukumatz do a move called wrath to push them out of the arena. Ran'jit is going all out in every battle that he is in, and his fusion later doesn't even seem like an actual power up, because you fight him on Thancred first. By rights though, he should just be able to use his super Raiton to two shot anyone(which I'm pretty sure they hotfixed to make people take seriously, because my first time doing that fight I distinctly remember timing tank cooldowns to the dialogue and having it do nearly 0 damage to me).

Both are timed, so you see different %s on tank, DPS, or healer.

[Vyrerus]

The Golbez Direction

Other than a sick band name are you saying you think they're heading for a brother reference?

[Kesey]

I am holding out hope with Thravnir and Garlemald being two of the confirmed locations for Endwalker, that either in patch 5.5 or 5.55 that we actually do make use of the embassies there to lay the ground work or something, like maybe whatever happens with the towers gets so bad that we have to flee Eorzea for a place not afflicted with them at the moment until we can find a way to shut them down, since Doma also has one then this will be Kugane, where we work with Thravanian officials and maybe even some surviving Populares (or just people just opposed to Zenos) who are working on granting diplomatic permission to enter Thravnir. This would also be a call back to 2.55 with us ending up at Camp Dragonhead before going to Ishgard proper after the bloody banquet. Just anything to make it worth it because right now Kugane has some of the most missed potential for a main hub city.

If I remember correctly the npc outside the Thavnairian Consulate says to not return unless you have official business.

That being said, the official business could be in the middle of the 6.0. There is no proof that Thavnairia is the starting area of EW. Or that the consulate is the way in to the country.

Simple plot twist is that 7.0 is a Hingashi expansion and our new friends from 6.0 Thavnairia need to get us into Hingashi with diplomatic immunity, via the Kugane Thavnairia consulate.

[KizuyaKatogami]

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I think the first battle presents the situation well. Zenos is bored, and he\\\\\\'s just watching you to see how strong you are, while setting out some simple attacks. You fail to impress him, so he ends it and calls you pathetic. Though he did break a sword on you. Which is why you get to live, because you\\\\\\'re not worth drawing another one on.

The second fight you\\\\\\'re actually dealing somewhat normal damage for the first half while Yugiri is there, and she LB3s him(and it only does 14.3k). He then powers up, and it turns into the same fight as before. You can barely land hits on him, let alone scratch him, and if he didn\\\\\\'t choose to just end it, then you would die before you got him half way down. He also does way more attacks than the first time around. Lightless flames, tangible copies of himself, Ame-no-Hibakiri, and loads more of Vein-Splitter. The fighting area is a lot smaller, so if you\\\\\\'re not careful you will take damage, and you can duty fail that one relatively easily.

In Zenos\\\\\\'s final fight with you, before he mantles Shinryu, he uses his full power. It is enough, and I have seen people fail to it. Should you live through all that he brings to bear, at the end of the fight he takes a book out of 80/180 Behemoth\\\\\\'s book and mingles auto attacks with repeated castings of Concentrativity over and over until one of you is dead. He could have done that or anything else in the earlier fights to kill you.

It\\\\\\'s much better conveyed and done than the Ran\\\\\\'jit fight in SHB. In that one, especially on tank, Ran\\\\\\'jit definitely feels like someone you could kill if the game would allow it (Lyna be like, "We\\\\\\'re overmatched! 10 seconds in and he\\\\\\'s at 80%). They don\\\\\\'t because they have further narrative use for him, but unlike in the Zenos fight where he uses Concentrativity first to remove people and it deals 80% of your HP, Ran\\\\\\'jit instead uses some overblown version of Raiton one at a time, and then has Gukumatz do a move called wrath to push them out of the arena. Ran\\\\\\'jit is going all out in every battle that he is in, and his fusion later doesn\\\\\\'t even seem like an actual power up, because you fight him on Thancred first. By rights though, he should just be able to use his super Raiton to two shot anyone(
Both are timed, so you see different %s on tank, DPS, or healer.

Tbf the zenos power level thing honestly makes 0 sense. The fact he wipes the floor with us basically those 2 times, we get stronger yes but the thing is, so does he. He gets the resonance which puts him even higher on the scale yet somehow we can beat him in Ala Mhigo? And then again with shinryu? The power scaling just doesn’t add up and i guess that’s the problem with Zenos. They tried to make him a massive threat but just forgoed any plot coherency for it.

[Lauront]

Other than a sick band name are you saying you think they're heading for a brother reference?

No, I don't think they'll lift too much stuff in such a direct way, but possibly Azem shards (besides Ardbert) that were migrated from other Reflections onto the Source and placed in him? That is feasible given the sort of thing Emet-Selch was capable of, in terms of guiding and retrieving souls, and given the trust he placed in Azem.

Following the death of his Garlean "son" he evidently lost yet more hope in the sundered life forms, so the line of reasoning here is perhaps he sought to endow one with specific soul shards he knew and trusted to see what would come of it - probably not too impressed, and Zenos is believed to be dead by the point he's awakened anyway. There's a few things that don't mesh 100% with it in the plot but I think it's a fairly plausible scenario.

[Bright-Flower]

I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.

He does have the annoying 'you lose now' moment and somehow we're able beat him at the end because...I guess just vertical mmo power scaling, but where Zenos is basically portrayed as untouchable, Ran'jit is presented as a threat but like he has to actually try and feels like he can be thwarted. Instead of 'beats you easily, beats you easily, oh you're level 70 now so you can beat me' we see him having to flee when Titania attacks his forces, we see Thancred dunk on him and knock him into the hole, we're able to fight him in an apparantly even enough match before that when the viera stun him so we can get further inside, then Thancred is able to beat him going all out before we finally fight him.

I think I may have liked Zenos better in SB if he was closer to that. Someone strong and of comparable power to us but not 'no chance, no chance, okay now you can fight him' it felt a lot better with Ran'jit. It also helps that unlike Zenos he had an actual stake in the plot even if we only start to see hints of that toward the end. My only real issue with Ran'jit is I feel like he should have died after the duel with Thancred, leaving Vauthry floundering on what to do without him to better explain the disorganized state we find Eulmore in. The final duel with him doesn't really add anything except I guess making us feel strong because we lost to him before I guess.

[Vyrerus]

Tbf the zenos power level thing honestly makes 0 sense. The fact he wipes the floor with us basically those 2 times, we get stronger yes but the thing is, so does he. He gets the resonance which puts him even higher on the scale yet somehow we can beat him in Ala Mhigo? And then again with shinryu? The power scaling just doesn’t add up and i guess that’s the problem with Zenos. They tried to make him a massive threat but just forgoed any plot coherency for it.

I thought it added up just fine. We don't actually know at what point he gained the Resonance. Even though he did, Fordola gained it too. We beat her, so it's not that big of a deal compared to his "natural" strength anyway. Also in Ala Mhigo, we get that line about, "Gather your most trusted comrades." To explain away why it's a dungeon, so we fight him with 3 talented adventurers and the WoL.

As for beating him as Shinryu, well, mantling a primal is all well and good, but it's not any less believable than beating Thordan. Thordan was the summation of 1,000 years of piety. one of Nidhogg's Eyes, and the entire Heavensward. He also got to drink up a Source Ascian and some of the Warring Triad's power juice. Shinryu was just both of Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd's hatred, and that swathe of the Ala Mhigan Resistance that followed him. Nevermind that the eyes lost aether by Ilberd using them at the top of Baelsar's Wall to try and kill us. Shinryu had also just come out of a subdued and weakened state, and we know from watching Garuda try and fail to temper us that when it tried to temper us along with Zenos and not only fail but have its will subsumed... it's another weakening to the primal. Plus it started out "life" sealed by Papalymo. Imagine how much stronger it could have been.