Make tenacity great

[Cabalabob]

Tenacity and piety are progression stats and there’s no way to change that without fundamentally changing what they do or what substats do overall. They’re stats that give you a little buffer when you don’t quite know the fight yet but once you do and you’ve optimised your healing and mitigation they’re no longer needed in favour of damage.

The fact is the majority of players aren’t going to go to that level of optimisation outside of world first parties because fights are easy enough to learn once all the guides are out that you don’t need to.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Tenacity and piety are progression stats and there’s no way to change that without fundamentally changing what they do or what substats do overall. They’re stats that give you a little buffer when you don’t quite know the fight yet but once you do and you’ve optimised your healing and mitigation they’re no longer needed in favour of damage.

Neither needs to be. Part of Tenacity's problem is that a 5% mitigation increase does not covert to 5% less healing actions needed and Piety suffers from high cost healing and damage spells not being a significant enough MP drain that increased MP regen does not increase damage by transitioning to higher cost heals.

In theory, a high tenacity build would increase party dps by allowing healers to cast more offensive spells so the party gear composition question would become how much Tenacity do we need to maximize healer dps. The problem with this is that the Healer offensive/healing casts per minute ratio is heavily skewed towards the offensive side.

With Piety, the theory is that with more Piety you would go from casting "Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare, Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare" when you have ~400 MP regen per tick to "Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare, Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare" when you have ~700 MP regen per tick. Due to how healing requirements are tuned and how little the MP drain is in fights we pretty much start at the later and Piety becomes more a question of how many Rezs do I need before I go OoM.

[Absurdity]

In theory, a high tenacity build would increase party dps by allowing healers to cast more offensive spells so the party gear composition question would become how much Tenacity do we need to maximize healer dps. The problem with this is that the Healer offensive/healing casts per minute ratio is heavily skewed towards the offensive side.

That's not the only question you would need to ask in a theoretical tenacity build though. You would also need to know if maximizing healer dps outweights the dps lost from tanks going full ten.
But yes, it is entirely theoretical because in reality you're most likely not saving your healer any GCDs by going full ten.

[Ultimatecalibur]

That's not the only question you would need to ask in a theoretical tenacity build though. You would also need to know if maximizing healer dps outweights the dps lost from tanks going full ten.

The dps loss from going full ten is actually pretty low. Outside of Direct Hit shenanigans, the dps difference between a Tenacity heavy build and a Crit heavy build is about 2%.

But yes, it is entirely theoretical because in reality you're most likely not saving your healer any GCDs by going full ten.

True with the current extremely low gcd heal requirements. At a 3:21 healingffensive healer base gcd use per minute ratio a 5% reduction in healing required only 1 gcd is going to be freed up rough every 7 minutes. With a more sane 12:12 ratio base, a 5% reduction in healing required frees up roughly 1 of the healing gcds for offensive use every 2 minutes and the amount freed up by tenacity only gets better as the healingffensive gcd ratio favors healing.

[Cabalabob]

Neither needs to be. Part of Tenacity's problem is that a 5% mitigation increase does not covert to 5% less healing actions needed and Piety suffers from high cost healing and damage spells not being a significant enough MP drain that increased MP regen does not increase damage by transitioning to higher cost heals.

In theory, a high tenacity build would increase party dps by allowing healers to cast more offensive spells so the party gear composition question would become how much Tenacity do we need to maximize healer dps. The problem with this is that the Healer offensive/healing casts per minute ratio is heavily skewed towards the offensive side.

With Piety, the theory is that with more Piety you would go from casting "Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare, Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare" when you have ~400 MP regen per tick to "Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare, Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare" when you have ~700 MP regen per tick. Due to how healing requirements are tuned and how little the MP drain is in fights we pretty much start at the later and Piety becomes more a question of how many Rezs do I need before I go OoM.

What I mean is that if they made tenacity any stronger it would become the stat of choice, you wouldn’t be fixing anything, just changing the thing we meld. Substats in this game are too simplistic and at the end of the day you’re going to pick the stat that gives the biggest damage boost no matter how it accomplishes that.

Tenacity as it stands works as a progression stat, it’s niche but it’s an identity. If they made it so tenacity was the only meld worth taking then what’s the point of having options for stats in the first place? You can either take the safety net of tenacity/piety or go for the optimal damage boost of direct hit, there’s a choice there (even if it’s a mistake/oversight).

To me what they need to do is remove certain substats entirely and rework their purpose. Skill/spell speed should be combined into just speed or haste because while speed has a place in the game as people can alter their rotation with a certain amount of speed the split between skill and spell is arbitrary at this point since jobs either don’t use both stats and the jobs that do are just being unnecessarily gimped on a part of their rotation by the split. Determination should just be removed entirely since at this point it’s just the same as primary stats but weaker.

Then we would be left with speed to alter your rotation, crit for just extra damage and then they could rework the remaining stats into something useful outside of damage (tenacity purely reduce damage taken, change direct hit to something like evasion, a stat that’s gone completely under-utilised in ffxiv and keep piety as mp regen rate).

[Gserpent]

Tenacity isn't even really a progression stat. Its benefits are too weak to be meaningful. Blind prog week 1 wipes are generally not understanding or correctly solving mechanics, and in Eden's Promise are typically due to non-tank players being dead since raid damage is much higher than in previous tiers. The benefits of a full Tenacity meld are too minuscule to really have a meaningful impact; you might as well use a typical BiS meld so you get that bit more of extra DPS so you can meet those actually quite challenging week 1 DPS checks on floors 3 and 4.

I think if they removed the DPS component entirely and doubled or even tripled its defensive benefits, Tenacity would be valuable and useful as a proper progression stat. You could achieve meaningful damage reduction and healing increase by stacking enough of it, which would take a little bit of pressure off healers during week 1/2 prog. But as it is right now, it's trying to do everything and it does everything poorly.