So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Colt47]

Its SE design philosophy to have players figure out everything for themselves. Which naturally leads to situation where you must use outside sources to even learn how to play your job properly, because a lot of things are not intuitive at all. Concepts like oGCD weaving and delaying cooldowns for party buffs with proper opener are simple, but fundamental and you would not have a clue about them just from playing the game on your first job as a new player.

It's actually a problem that the designers of this style of MMO ran into with long running games. The pattern MMOs in this style have to adopt long term is the classic "everything before this expansion is legacy / obsolete content". They typically power down the content or do something so that people can just dumb fire rush it, since the dungeon mechanics were built for job and action designs that may no longer exist, and the longer you get away from the expansion the dungeons were a part of, the more they have to nerf them. That's why in ARR things are cheesecake walks in the park. It isn't because they want them to be mindless, it's just that they don't have the resources to redesign every dungeon in the game to fit the new jobs.

The issue is that they only want people to learn the jobs in the current expansion, and that is why BLM is such a problem right now with a few others. New players are starting at level 1 and going up to the current expansion. They aren't going to learn how to do things efficiently and they get abilities that only have niche relevance on their bars, like sleep, which has no functional value due to the dungeons they are tackling being so easy. I mean, they don't so much need a tutorial as they need to simplify the rotations into something that can be naturally learned without going to outside resources. I mean, mechanist has a smooth rotation *once you know it*, but good luck figuring it out without tons of hours or just finding a kindly soul to tell you.

[Kyrj]

Nah we should be doing the exact opposite. I heard the term toxic casualism used once and it's stuck with me. This game is riddled with it. I HIGHLY doubt someone was dogging on you in a low lvl dungeon because dont no one say jack squat in low lvl dungeon.

That being said if you're not bringing your best you're just a burden on your team and weighing them down. This is more true for SAM players than anyone else, you better be damn near the top of the charts or you're just wasting space. But let's say a SAM player is having trouble, how is your group or FC supposed to go about helping you? Do they tell you that your damage is low? How would they know? Do you see the problem here? Now we have groups that want to help you but are afraid to because of this idiotic "Meters are bad my feelings get hurt" mentality that is plaguing the game.

[Jojoya]

Nah we should be doing the exact opposite. I heard the term toxic casualism used once and it's stuck with me. This game is riddled with it. I HIGHLY doubt someone was dogging on you in a low lvl dungeon because dont no one say jack squat in low lvl dungeon.

That being said if you're not bringing your best you're just a burden on your team and weighing them down. This is more true for SAM players than anyone else, you better be damn near the top of the charts or you're just wasting space. But let's say a SAM player is having trouble, how is your group or FC supposed to go about helping you? Do they tell you that your damage is low? How would they know? Do you see the problem here? Now we have groups that want to help you but are afraid to because of this idiotic "Meters are bad my feelings get hurt" mentality that is plaguing the game.

And so you go from complaining about toxic casualism to displaying toxic elitism.

Did the player's effort contribute to the boss dying? Yes/No. If the answer is yes, then job is done and nothing else needs to be said.

Content in the game doesn't need to be a speed run. If you want a speed run, go do Mythic+ in WoW.

Personally, I agree with need for damage meters in the game. They're a valuable self improvement tool that work a lot less efficiently when you have to go to an outside website to view your performance on someone else's uploaded log compared to having it in front if you as you play so you can see the real time results.

There were any number of times I would sit down with Recount/Skada/Details in WoW to work on self-improvement or to help another player who was trying to get a better grasp of the basics of their class. I can't do that here without breaking ToS. I have to play guessing games about what is being done and I'm still left guessing whether or not it's being done right after making changes.

If a small number of players choose to use meters for "toxic" purposes, then remove those players from the game. Others will quickly get the point and the game will end up a more enjoyable experience in general.

[Themarvin]

I would not mind if they became instant ban, everyone who does content especially savage uses cactbot as well that tells them whatever mechanic is coming for them... and what need to do... it is the cancer to gaming to permitting it, I vote for that SE does not record stuff on peoples PC's that they can then extract and put numbers on.

[Kyrj]

And so you go from complaining about toxic casualism to displaying toxic elitism.

Did the player's effort contribute to the boss dying? Yes/No. If the answer is yes, then job is done and nothing else needs to be said.

Content in the game doesn't need to be a speed run. If you want a speed run, go do Mythic+ in WoW.

Personally, I agree with need for damage meters in the game. They're a valuable self improvement tool that work a lot less efficiently when you have to go to an outside website to view your performance on someone else's uploaded log compared to having it in front if you as you play so you can see the real time results.

There were any number of times I would sit down with Recount/Skada/Details in WoW to work on self-improvement or to help another player who was trying to get a better grasp of the basics of their class. I can't do that here without breaking ToS. I have to play guessing games about what is being done and I'm still left guessing whether or not it's being done right after making changes.

If a small number of players choose to use meters for "toxic" purposes, then remove those players from the game. Others will quickly get the point and the game will end up a more enjoyable experience in general.

It's not elitism to expect people to bring their best and as for my example with SAM that is the case, you HAVE to bring your best because SAM offers nothing else other than sheer dps and if you're not bringing the best dps you're taking up a space.

Lol do people actually think wanting someone to bring their best is elitism?

[KeshLives]

It's not elitism to expect people to bring their best and as for my example with SAM that is the case, you HAVE to bring your best because SAM offers nothing else other than sheer dps and if you're not bringing the best dps you're taking up a space.

Lol do people actually think wanting someone to bring their best is elitism?

At Savage/Ultimate/Extreme levels, I have no problem with it, to a point. However, if you're filling from the Duty Finder, you're going to get what you get, and you'll have to expect to deal with it. If you want to get a guaranteed group of only people who know the fight, have the gear, and the knowledge, then you can make your own group, too. Doing so pretty much guarantees a roflstomp, which is probably what you expect from everyone, with your 'wasting space' remark. You should probably go to WoW, or back to WoW, whichever, because you'd fit right in there.


If someone is still figuring out their rotation along with their dodging in a normal mode or hard mode dungeons, and you start giving them a bunch of crap that they're 'wasting space', you're being an ass.

Keep it to where it's appropriate. If you start telling people in leveling/normal/hard dungeons that they're a waste of space, where the heck are they supposed to learn?

[Kyrj]

At Savage/Ultimate/Extreme levels, I have no problem with it, to a point. However, if you're filling from the Duty Finder, you're going to get what you get, and you'll have to expect to deal with it. If you want to get a guaranteed group of only people who know the fight, have the gear, and the knowledge, then you can make your own group, too. Doing so pretty much guarantees a roflstomp, which is probably what you expect from everyone, with your 'wasting space' remark. You should probably go to WoW, or back to WoW, whichever, because you'd fit right in there.


If someone is still figuring out their rotation along with their dodging in a normal mode or hard mode dungeons, and you start giving them a bunch of crap that they're 'wasting space', you're being an ass.

Keep it to where it's appropriate. If you start telling people in leveling/normal/hard dungeons that they're a waste of space, where the heck are they supposed to learn?

I can agree with this, this is why my original post I said I highly doubt the OP had something said to them. No one cares about dungeon, they're meaningless content. BUT you still should still strive to bring your best. The attitude of just showing up and doing w/e is a terrible mindset to have.

[KeshLives]

I can agree with this, this is why my original post I said I highly doubt the OP had something said to them. No one cares about dungeon, they're meaningless content. BUT you still should still strive to bring your best. The attitude of just showing up and doing w/e is a terrible mindset to have.

As for me, I always bring my best. This isn't my first rodeo, after all. I just don't want to deal with a bunch of talk about 'wasted space', 'you should uninstall', 'you suck', etc, at low levels/low difficulties where it does nothing but drive people away, waste even more time, and just makes people mad, to no gain.

And, yes, you are correct. I'm leveling this new character, and I'm *not* seeing this stuff, and I'm very glad it doesn't happen here. I want it to stay that way.

I've been a hardcore player previously, but my life changed, my job changed, etc, and I simply don't have the time, or the patience to bother with savage/extreme/ultimate. What you do at higher difficulties where it's more important is not something you'll hear any problems from me on, other than the caveat about filling from the Duty Finder. If you just depend on the Duty Finder to fill your groups for high difficulties, well, that's on you for not making your own groups, imo. I criticize WoW and how they have become over the last five or six years a lot, but, there's a reason that they don't fill raids/dungeons automatically at higher difficulties.

YMMV.

[Colt47]

Nah we should be doing the exact opposite. I heard the term toxic casualism used once and it's stuck with me. This game is riddled with it. I HIGHLY doubt someone was dogging on you in a low lvl dungeon because dont no one say jack squat in low lvl dungeon.

That being said if you're not bringing your best you're just a burden on your team and weighing them down. This is more true for SAM players than anyone else, you better be damn near the top of the charts or you're just wasting space. But let's say a SAM player is having trouble, how is your group or FC supposed to go about helping you? Do they tell you that your damage is low? How would they know? Do you see the problem here? Now we have groups that want to help you but are afraid to because of this idiotic "Meters are bad my feelings get hurt" mentality that is plaguing the game.

It's not a lack of meters! Meters came about because of the need to overcome the end game Enrage timers that were adopted to push DPS and make the fights "more engaging".

There are people who learn the wrong lessons and then they turn into this stubborn mule that refuses to improve. I'm not even going to debate that one because I've seen it myself. They just reject everything and play the game like they are the only person that matters, and there is nothing one can do about them but just blacklist and move on. However, what really is plaguing people is the lazy design and the overcomplication of the jobs.

I know that people complain a lot on the forum about just about everything, but this is coming from the heart on this. They need to give optional skills near the end of the leveling experience, and give people the skills needed for the rotation far sooner, with plenty of visual guides to make it so that they can understand the rotation perfectly, and they need to keep the necessary skills used on the rotation down to around 12 buttons tops. I'm not saying "oh, get rid of all skills and make everyone run on 12 buttons", I mean make the primary focus of the rotation those 12 buttons and put the skills that they need to weave, like damage boosting skills, as buttons 13-18. If they got fancy optional skills that do anti-knock back or sleep, make those buttons 19-24. In fact, I'd actually advocate for even less than this because I think that the idea of a single job being your main is stupid, and that someones main should be three jobs, one of each role, so that it is easier to build groups for content. If someone finds a role boring, just go to your other one, problem solved.

Look how much the melee jobs die in savage. This isn't just newbie players, these are the guys who cleared it trying to do parse runs getting hammered and dying because they can't focus on both doing their task optimally and doing mechanics. The best I've seen has been in Alexander Ultimate, but that is a giant perfectly mapped fight that is a series of dance steps someone memorizes with a set group. Even the ranged DPS mess up sometimes without callouts and I can tell you this doesn't happen in any other MMO I've played.

[Dogempire]

It's not elitism to expect people to bring their best and as for my example with SAM that is the case, you HAVE to bring your best because SAM offers nothing else other than sheer dps and if you're not bringing the best dps you're taking up a space.

Lol do people actually think wanting someone to bring their best is elitism?

Eh, I get where you're coming from but it's a game, not a job. Setting standards for random players is a recipe for disaster since people will always find a way to underperform.