Blue mage shouldnt be "Limited"

[LeonKeyh]

Imagine if everyone wanted Dragoon to be released,[...] There are other ways to work around BLUs unique battle system -- but this aint it chief...

False equivalency. Dragoon's primary class lore isn't about learning skills. The entire point of BLU in Final Fantasy is finding the spells and learning them from enemies. You _can't_ do that in an MMO because of the reasons that I stated. Also, you would have to limit the spells either by power or cut down the total number of spells that BLU can learn to keep up with general class balance and complexity for PS4/controller players.

Easy.
1. <snip>

1. Like people look up that healers are meant to do DPS. Like people look up rotations for their DPS class. Like people look up how to cycle cooldowns as tanks. Like people look up that Cure I/Physick/Benefic shouldn't be used at max level. Like people look up what stack markers are. Like people look up how they should use AE attacks on multiple enemies. People don't look things up. Also, from a user experience standpoint, they shouldn't have to. If BLU were a normal job then like all of the normal jobs it shouldn't require people to leave the game to figure out how to play at a reasonable level.

2. So, remove the interesting part of BLU (trying to figure out what the spell/NPC is) and just make it a checklist. Sounds fun. Why not just make it job quests at that point since a system exists for that already? At that point, what differentiates BLU from everything else?

3.Create a completely new system for this single job that is a normal job but somehow needs to be treated differently? Doesn't sound like a normal job to me. Sets horrible expectations for users that decide to choose BLU as their main. "All of these jobs are the same" turns into someone trying to continue their MSQ and being told that they need to open up some checklist and do more work and running around than any other job needs to do in order to progress.

The meta is a shaky battleground my G<snip>.

The reason that you have the ability to say that in FF14 is because of how great balance is for classes. The fact of the matter is that a large part of the reason why for the most part any job is accepted that falls into the role they like is because of the lack of customization of the jobs. One Samurai has the same general floor and ceiling of output as another Samurai at the same ilvl. Other than getting to track down the spells, the other value of BLU's gameplay is the customization behind it. You want to put together a tank spec? Go for it. Healer spec? Sure, why not? DPS? Definitely. You _can't_ have something like that in the current "normal" job ecosystem while maintaining class balance.

In order for BLU to be a normal job you have to either destroy what makes the class interesting, or provide a horrible user experience that doesn't match the "normal" classes but is pretending to be.

[Koka-Kola]

but there is no reason for the class to change and to be limited. it has its cooldowns, its burst, and as far as damage goes, I know redmages who hit harder than blue mage. I keep seeing things about balance and changing the class but it needs neither of the two to become normal. it doesnt HAVE a normal rotation nor should it. blue mage should have freedom to do what ever content the player wants aslong as its item level and spell level (spells acquired) are at a certain point. I've seen people complain about a player can queue without damage skills. That issue lies with the player and not the class so why limit the class. most blue mage spammable only go to 220 potency. then cooldowns that have over a minute cd time only do 300-450 potency. keep in mind most of the CDs are shared with other spells. as far as dps, its damage is normal for its level. Only complaint is skills like ultra vibration and level 5 death. It deserves more than what little freedom it has. I mean for a "solo" content job, I cant even do story.

[Mikey_R]

If BLU was going to be made a full job, it would not behave like it does now. You will learn your spells through job quests and via level up (the job quests acting like, oh, you see this enemy use this ability, you learn it). It would be stuck as a caster DPS and so you would lose alot of utility, such as pom cure, gobskin, white wind, diamond back etc. It would have a rotation you can build to optimise damage, which will be dictated by the spells you learn from level up/job quests etc.

The problem is, you have two choices. You either make it a full job, in which case, you lose all the versatility the job has and make it just like any other caster with a rotation, or, you give it the freedom to do whatever it wants, it can have the powerful abilities, you can have the really strong heals etc. however, you have to sacrifice its ability to do current endgame raids so that you cannot use BLU to potentially cheese mechanics and make the fights trivial.

You can have one or the other, but not both at the same time.

[Raikai]

but there is no reason for the class to change and to be limited. it has its cooldowns, its burst, and as far as damage goes, I know redmages who hit harder than blue mage. I keep seeing things about balance and changing the class but it needs neither of the two to become normal. it doesnt HAVE a normal rotation nor should it. blue mage should have freedom to do what ever content the player wants aslong as its item level and spell level (spells acquired) are at a certain point. I've seen people complain about a player can queue without damage skills. That issue lies with the player and not the class so why limit the class. most blue mage spammable only go to 220 potency. then cooldowns that have over a minute cd time only do 300-450 potency. keep in mind most of the CDs are shared with other spells. as far as dps, its damage is normal for its level. Only complaint is skills like ultra vibration and level 5 death. It deserves more than what little freedom it has. I mean for a "solo" content job, I cant even do story.

But think about it, outside of just the dps spells and numbers, Blue mages have a lot of things that would affect other job's gameplay and affect the overall balance of a fight, to name a few:
- Condensed Libra if it would interact with non-blue mages
- White Wind would trivialize healing for the healers when provided by dpsers on occasion
- Blue Mage healers are much stronger than the regular ones and can bring way more dps than those. Healing as a Blue Mage is hella boring, though.
- An offtank BLU with cactguard would make the main tank basically have a perma mitigator
- Diamondback is insane defensive utility for the non-tanks against certain mechanics, especially because of the long duration
- Aetherial mimicry allowing you to have the offtank only be a tank when necessary, so it would essentially make it a full fifth dpser

And at that scope, it would make the devs wary of future spells being given and how they would affect the whole composition instead of just the blue mage bubble.


Honestly, Blue Mages being not Limited and allowed with the rest of the group for current content would certainly cause imbalances to the point that people would be obliged to run with at least 2 of them just because of the insane utility... Don't get me wrong, if I could choose, I'd certainly have them to be a mainstream job as well, but for this to happen it would need a completely different approach.

[Koka-Kola]

There are plenty of ways to get spells without the job quests. How the job quests currently work is fine (In order to continue job quests, you must get certain spells in open world)

I see everyone's point but I still do not see how it involves the limited status when Blue Mage has enough to be a normal job. Other classes have skills that push past their role. Redmage can heal and res, summoner can heal and res, whitemage and astro has good aoe dps skills. If we focus on just one role then how can we justify the rest of the jobs? Only difference is blue mage can learn and customize what it wants to bring into battle. It does not have a normal rotation and does not follow the "1-2-3" steps. Its damage is average due to shared cooldowns, it has some tanking skills, some healing skills, but it has mostly dps skills. Most of its status effects do not effect bosses and even some non-boss enemies. Blue mages main heal only heals for your current health. It costs 1500 PER cast and isn't that spammable. redmage and summoner heals CAN heal farm more than that and costs less. Most blue mage heals and buffs have a cooldown aswell. All this seems pretty balanced for a job. It just doesn't follow the stone structure that other jobs have with the "1-2-3" attack rotation and it is perfect that way. Only difference is that there is a limitation on what blue mage can do. I understand that people worry about META and roles but we have already crossed that line with other jobs. Blue mage is just average dps with some heals and buffs. It shouldn't be limited for its learning mechanic.

[Raikai]

There are plenty of ways to get spells without the job quests. How the job quests currently work is fine (In order to continue job quests, you must get certain spells in open world)

I see everyone's point but I still do not see how it involves the limited status when Blue Mage has enough to be a normal job. Other classes have skills that push past their role. Redmage can heal and res, summoner can heal and res, whitemage and astro has good aoe dps skills. If we focus on just one role then how can we justify the rest of the jobs? Only difference is blue mage can learn and customize what it wants to bring into battle. It does not have a normal rotation and does not follow the "1-2-3" steps. Its damage is average due to shared cooldowns, it has some tanking skills, some healing skills, but it has mostly dps skills. Most of its status effects do not effect bosses and even some non-boss enemies. Blue mages main heal only heals for your current health. It costs 1500 PER cast and isn't that spammable. redmage and summoner heals CAN heal farm more than that and costs less. Most blue mage heals and buffs have a cooldown aswell. All this seems pretty balanced for a job. It just doesn't follow the stone structure that other jobs have with the "1-2-3" attack rotation and it is perfect that way. Only difference is that there is a limitation on what blue mage can do. I understand that people worry about META and roles but we have already crossed that line with other jobs. Blue mage is just average dps with some heals and buffs. It shouldn't be limited for its learning mechanic.

White Wind isn't spammable, but just one single cast of it by a Blue mage in full health can completely heal the tank taking a big tank buster, or multiple people that decided not not move from aoe, that's WAY stronger than Vercure of the Dancer's heal. Unavoidable AoEs almost never fully blasts the party's HP (at least at once), so 2 White Winds from 2 different blue mage dpsers can even null the need of an actual second healer.

Diamondback's duration is so big that will let you ignore key mechanics from a fight... Why not have a party full of Blue Mages dpsers and worry less about stressful mechanics?

Aetherial Mimicry can literally let you have 1 healer and 1 tank be full fledged dpsers while their roles aren't needed.

Cactguard cast by a tank is a -15% spammable dmg reduction... Thus it would be optimal for your offtank always be a Blue Mage, to keep that on the main tank.

You're generalizing a lot there. Your point is valid in which you say that Blue Mages have the dps complexity, but those examples that I listed, and many others can literally break the balance of a fight, especially in Savage modes. If this doesn't let you see how the limited status is needed for how Blue Mages are at the moment, then I don't know how else I can put it into perspective...

[Koka-Kola]

White Wind isn't spammable, but just one single cast of it by a Blue mage in full health can completely heal the tank taking a big tank buster, or multiple people that decided not not move from aoe, that's WAY stronger than Vercure of the Dancer's heal. Unavoidable AoEs almost never fully blasts the party's HP (at least at once), so 2 White Winds from 2 different blue mage dpsers can even null the need of an actual second healer.

Diamondback's duration is so big that will let you ignore key mechanics from a fight... Why not have a party full of Blue Mages dpsers and worry less about stressful mechanics?

Aetherial Mimicry can literally let you have 1 healer and 1 tank be full fledged dpsers while their roles aren't needed.

Cactguard cast by a tank is a -15% spammable dmg reduction... Thus it would be optimal for your offtank always be a Blue Mage, to keep that on the main tank.

You're generalizing a lot there. Your point is valid in which you say that Blue Mages have the dps complexity, but those examples that I listed, and many others can literally break the balance of a fight, especially in Savage modes. If this doesn't let you see how the limited status is needed for how Blue Mages are at the moment, then I don't know how else I can put it into perspective...

White wind at full health yes, but anywhere below 50%, not worth it. its cost is too great to use often. Diamond backs cost is 3000 MP and lasts 10 seconds(No mp recover when active). It only reduces your damage taken by 90%. Now insta kill mechanics cannot be dodged or ignored. With that in mind all of the tanks CD's are better that diamond back for those reasons. I mean gunbreaker is invincible for 10 seconds AND can move freely. Quite the difference there. Diamond back does NOT allow you to skip mechanics unless you are over geared (Just as other jobs could) Now Aetherial Mimicry (Mimics a targets role: DPS gets 20% crit chance, healer adds additional effects to some healing skills, tank adds some damage reduction) is a solid point but blue mage cannot out heal or out tank a normal healer or tank (Just as most casters can dos and heal.) Diamond back is not spammable(3000 cost with no MP recovery when active), mighty guard, cactguard and even aetherial mimicry cannot make up for an actual tank class since tanks get significantly more health and have more tank skills. Ive seen it all too much where a member in a blue farming group had to swap to an ACTUAL healer or tank (Synced) because blue cannot do what those roles do best. Also what is stopping a blue mage as entering a dungeon as a tank or healer? well as a DPS class, why would you queue as a tank? You dont get a fast queue, and you dont do the job that well and if they did queue as such then that is just as bad as healers or tanks queueing and saying "I am DPSing." (Happens often)

[P0W3RK1D]

In order for BLU to be a normal job you have to either destroy what makes the class interesting, or provide a horrible user experience that doesn't match the "normal" classes but is pretending to be.

Well what would you say is the point of having a blue mage in the game if you cant really use it to "play the game? i mean there has to be some point to it right? Right now Blue mage is a novelty shop item -- you have it because it looks and feels nice, but your not really actually going (or rather you cant) actually use it for anything important. The fact that i cant at the very least play through current Treasure maps, Dngs, or Main storyline quests with what is one of my favorite classes in the franchise is already runing the experience for me.

[ItMe]

[...] but your not really actually going (or rather you cant) actually use it for anything important.

I guess we just define "important" differently...

[Koka-Kola]

I guess we just define "important" differently...

I would say story, current expansion and dungeons are important since its over a third if not half of the game.