How does FF14 compare to WoW? (And other MMOs)

[Payotz]

New Game + yes.
MSQ content yes.
Deep Dungeons yes.
Crafting and gathering no.
PVP yes.
Hunt marks no.
Fates no.

So does this mean that Crafting/Gathering, Hunt Marks and Fates are a failed game concept?
Or does this mean that in your point of view, that this content just needs more work put into it?

And for the people who do Crafting/Gathering, Hunt Marks and Fates, do you find it fun?
If not, do you want more work to be put into it? Do you think that these are a failed game concept?
Or do you think that these could have been executed better?

Spawning S ranks is fun, so yes people do it for fun or for mounts. You can also do daily hunt bills for leveling.

Fates are involved in relic weapons and in getting bicolor gemstone rewards and it's fun to do each fate at least once just to see what it's like.

I mean that's the thing though isn't it. People will actually run through the FATEs once to experience it. After bicolor gemstones, it's not that repeatable anymore aside from the Relic grind.

Most content in FF14 is pretty much like that. Most of it has very low staying power, and is left like that for a very long time. I would argue that Hardcore content and PvP content are two things that are most affected by it, but that's really how I see things from my own PoV. (and before you say anything, I've had this opinion long before Ultimate was pushed back).

They all can be fun to different people. Just about all of them have rewards, incentives or xp behind them.

Let's add the gold saucer and treasure maps to repeatable content that many people do as well.

Yeah and they're all good concepts. The incentives are a thing added onto the content to make it repeatable, but that doesn't make it any worse of a game concept because of it.

[MoofiaBossVal]

Things that WoW has:
- Trade Chat

From my personal experience, this is a plus. When I played WoW, I felt like I spent a lot of time needlessly paying attention to trade chat. It's easy to get caught up in the moment talking to random people... but it's like browsing 4chan; you're just talking to random people who you're never going to see again, and since the conversation isn't recorded on a forum somewhere... you basically spend a lot of time and effort typing for no long term reason.

From what I've heard, the novice network is basically trade chat 2.0.

I also feel this way about big, active discords, where I felt compelled to get involved in every conversation. But ultimately it was just a big waste of time for the same reasons. Once I left those big discords, I felt relieved, and spent my time better elsewhere.

Now I just spend a little bit of time posting on forums and really small forums, and then get on with my life.

[Edax]

So does this mean that Crafting/Gathering, Hunt Marks and Fates are a failed game concept?
Or does this mean that in your point of view, that this content just needs more work put into it?

And for the people who do Crafting/Gathering, Hunt Marks and Fates, do you find it fun?
If not, do you want more work to be put into it? Do you think that these are a failed game concept?
Or do you think that these could have been executed better?

I do not consider it a failed concept, but as executed, you wouldn't be able to dedicate a single player game around it as executed by FFXIV. Crafting and Gathering can be fun, Factorio and Stardew Valley is evidence of that. The act of clicking on a menu to gather or pushing a bunch of buttons to craft something is too simplistic to even be called a game. Hunting could be fun if the targets had any AI but they don't in FFXIV. And fates are just too simplistic in my opinion to be that much different from tedious grinding, being not that much different from SWTOR tying mobs together in a group. These concepts only work with a reward system, otherwise they're tedious busywork that few would bother without the rewards.

Gathering and crafting could be fun if they had actual gameplay involved, but as is, there's no actual "game" in the gameplay. Just the act of having to gather resources in a very dangerous area or time limits for crafting could at least add a gameplay element to it, but this game doesn't really do that. I think Fates were intended to mini-games and that could be fun, but most fates aren't sophisticated enough to be considered mini-games. If they were like the mini-games in FFVII, they could have been a really neat addition. And hunts are just mob grinding with a slightly different flavor and could have been executed far better like using the Monster Hunter crossover fight as the hunt system. As it is, you can barely distinguish the gameplay between a hunt mark and a fate.

[linayar]

See where I'm going here? All of these are technically repeatable content. Technically. The main question is this, do you think that this is acceptable repeatable content for 5-6 months of content drought?

It depends on what you want to do repeatedly.

For example:

In WoW, I'm still leveling through Shadowlands (yeah, I'm taking it very slowly there), so I'll use my BfA activities:
Daily repeats: Normal/Heroic Random Dungeon, World Quests (for reputation/pathfinder and actual guaranteed gear upgrades some of the times)
Weekly repeats: LFR
Monthly(?) repeats: Timewalking Random Dungeon

In FFXIV:
Daily repeats: Trial Roulette, Normal Raid Roulette, Alliance Raid Roulette are my main while (Expert/Leveling/MSQ/other roulettes/beast tribe depends on if I want more Tomestone/EXP/extra gear drops/certain other rewards)
Weekly repeats: Normal Raids

So, looking at what I actually like to do the most (instanced PVE content against boss enemies at a difficulty that I can simply queue for), FFXIV definitely already has more of what I want of repeatable content and it has met that expectations for 4+ years now since I started playing in January of 2017.

The only time I would stop repeating contents on FFXIV is when I'm about to abandon a character for another (like now, actually, since I'll have a new character for Endwalker), because then I feel like my effort is wasted, but I can still have fun just repeating the content if I don't think of the gains from the content.

[Penthea]

> The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
Technically yes, but so is running around Limsa, and despite me enjoying running around Limsa, I don't count that as repeatable content.

Is this your way of saying that New Game+ isn't repeatable content? Despite the fact that this is the exact purpose it is supposed to serve? It was brought to the game specifically because players asked for a way to repeat the msq without making an alt. I find it strange that in an earlier post you praised the story but now you're comparing it to running laps in a city.

>It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
Which is technically added to Bozja, because you can't level from 70-80 using HoH or PoTD.
If there's a new DD expansion of HoH to level 70-80 like PoTD with Heavensward, then yes I'll take this as repeatable content.
Unfortunately, it's not.

It's not a technicality because Bozja and deep dungeons are not the same content. Plenty of players do both. Just because you don't doesn't mean no one else does.

Never mind how Bozja doesn't give the rewards you get from completing floor 200/100 of PotD/HoH, which also have incentives for repetition due to it being impossible to get all the rewards from just one clear.

>Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
Ishgard Restoration, sure. I'll deem that as "Repeatable" content, but if you're saying that crafting itself is repeatable content, then you might as well say that practicing your rotation on the striking dummy is repeatable content.

I didn't know smashing a dummy gave you xp to lvl up your class, and yielded items you can craft with to make other items such as gear and furniture. Thanks! I'm going to smash a dummy and get rich! /sarcasm in case that wasn't obvious

Also crafting and gathering was a thing long before Ishgard was even accessible in the game. Never mind the Restoration.

>Pvp
Which is dead half the time, and where they can't fix because most people don't have interest in it, and they can't fix because the server ticks aren't snappy enough for split second decisions.
Ever had to CC a healer in Frontlines and then see him fly back towards his backline due to Holmgang not applying until after a second or two later? Yeah, that's the problem.
I honestly don't know how Square could fix it without fixing server backend.

I will admit pvp appears to be suffering to some degree. I don't know a lot about it as I have little interest in it. I just know that long queues are expected due to a lack of popularity.

>Hunt marks
Which is pretty much added to the 450 tomestone grind. People don't do trains for fun, they do it for tomes.
Which is technically repeatable, but only for the once a week variety.

Not everyone does those only for tomes. There are other rewards you can get from doing that content. Mounts, minions, gear, furniture, orchestrions...quite a few goodies.

>Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable
And so is running around the overworld and farming the 200,000 enemies down achievements.

Fates yield more xp than burning down non fate mobs. Some also give rewards like mounts and minions. I don't think they're interesting either but again...that doesn't make it not content.

See where I'm going here?

Yea, you're pretty ticked off that I picked apart your argument.

[Payotz]

((Sorry if I couldn't reply fast enough. Had a wild night.))

I do not consider it a failed concept, but as executed, you wouldn't be able to dedicate a single player game around it as executed by FFXIV. Crafting and Gathering can be fun, Factorio and Stardew Valley is evidence of that. The act of clicking on a menu to gather or pushing a bunch of buttons to craft something is too simplistic to even be called a game. Hunting could be fun if the targets had any AI but they don't in FFXIV. And fates are just too simplistic in my opinion to be that much different from tedious grinding, being not that much different from SWTOR tying mobs together in a group. These concepts only work with a reward system, otherwise they're tedious busywork that few would bother without the rewards.

Gathering and crafting could be fun if they had actual gameplay involved, but as is, there's no actual "game" in the gameplay. Just the act of having to gather resources in a very dangerous area or time limits for crafting could at least add a gameplay element to it, but this game doesn't really do that. I think Fates were intended to mini-games and that could be fun, but most fates aren't sophisticated enough to be considered mini-games. If they were like the mini-games in FFVII, they could have been a really neat addition. And hunts are just mob grinding with a slightly different flavor and could have been executed far better like using the Monster Hunter crossover fight as the hunt system. As it is, you can barely distinguish the gameplay between a hunt mark and a fate.

Hmm that's a good enough assessment. Aside from Crafting/Gathering, I do have the same opinions as you in regards to Hunt Marks and Fates, but it does illustrate my point wherein the concept of those game mechanics are bad, it's just means they're executed poorly or need more work on it. That's the same thing I feel for raiding. Raiding, as executed as it is in FFXIV, needs more work, but raiding as a game concept is not a failed concept and the a game can revolve around it as its core. The execution just needs more work put into it.

Is this your way of saying that New Game+ isn't repeatable content? Despite the fact that this is the exact purpose it is supposed to serve? It was brought to the game specifically because players asked for a way to repeat the msq without making an alt. I find it strange that in an earlier post you praised the story but now you're comparing it to running laps in a city.

It's repeatable content in the same way as running Expert dungeon over and over again when you're overcapped on tomes is repeatable content. Calling it repeatable content is the same as running dungeons from Satasha to Matoya's on all roles, as technically you can repeat dungeons as repeatable, but there's just no incentive to do them. I view it more as a tool for story skip/job skip players to go back and play the story without making an alt.

And as for this bit here:

I find it strange that in an earlier post you praised the story but now you're comparing it to running laps in a city.

Yeah, cause it's literally content that's meant to be a one and done thing. The first time I got into Limsa, it looks amazing. I explored it, I ran around it, the same with other zones and city states. I have the same reaction to MSQ. I cried, I laughed, it was amazing, but will I get that same enjoyment there when I repeat it for the second time? Nope.

Saying that the MSQ is non-repeatable content isn't a dig at it. It's describing it as it is.

It's not a technicality because Bozja and deep dungeons are not the same content. Plenty of players do both. Just because you don't doesn't mean no one else does. Never mind how Bozja doesn't give the rewards you get from completing floor 200/100 of PotD/HoH, which also have incentives for repetition due to it being impossible to get all the rewards from just one clear.

I mean that Bozja is supposed to be the ShB replacement for Heaven or High. I'm down to do Heaven or High or PoTD casually if it means I can go to lvl 80 with it (aka, add another 50 floors to it like PoTD in HW). Is it repeatable? Sure, but it does need an expansion into ShB.

I didn't know smashing a dummy gave you xp to lvl up your class, and yielded items you can craft with to make other items such as gear and furniture. Thanks! I'm going to smash a dummy and get rich! /sarcasm in case that wasn't obvious

Also crafting and gathering was a thing long before Ishgard was even accessible in the game. Never mind the Restoration.

Sarcasm aside, how am I wrong? Crafting itself is a window wherein you experience content. That's like saying NIN is repeatable content. It's not. You have to experience repeatable content through it.

Crafting what? Furniture? Oh you mean playing the market? You mean getting gil? I consider that side fluff as it necessiates the players to make the content themselves. (SE never had a hand in undercutting wars, nor do they influence the market.)

To make my point clearer, the Nin Equivalent is playing NIN in what content? PvP? Dungeons? Raids? Fates? Be specific.

I will admit pvp appears to be suffering to some degree. I don't know a lot about it as I have little interest in it. I just know that long queues are expected due to a lack of popularity.

Which is unfortunate really. It's really dragged down by the backend not being as snappy as it should be. There are a lot of interesting job designs in PvP that are even a lot more interesting than PvE that majority of the playerbase couldn't experience cause of how unpopular it is. (TK MnK was in there at one point. That was fun)

Not everyone does those only for tomes. There are other rewards you can get from doing that content. Mounts, minions, gear, furniture, orchestrions...quite a few goodies.

Which doesn't really change that most people ride the train to do them. It's repeatable once a week, but most people don't do trains for fun. Running the trains is something that players do to make the content repeatable for themselves. (God bless the people who run the trains btw). Calling it repeatable is kinda like calling raids repeatable cause parse running is a thing.

Fates yield more xp than burning down non fate mobs. Some also give rewards like mounts and minions. I don't think they're interesting either but again...that doesn't make it not content.

That's the main thing about it. Fates are just a tiny bit more interesting than killing overworld mobs. A tiny tiny bit. Putting incentives is a good step in the right direction, but the content as it is has no staying power. They need to put more work into it.

Yea, you're pretty ticked off that I picked apart your argument.

Uhh, I wasn't? Why would I be mad at genuine discussion about FFXIV content?
To give more context, the whole line was this:

See where I'm going here? All of these are technically repeatable content. Technically. The main question is this, do you think that this is acceptable repeatable content for 5-6 months of content drought?

To be even more clear, do you think that the state of everything in that list, has staying power for 5-6 months? If so, I would love to listen as to why.

It depends on what you want to do repeatedly.

For example:

In WoW, I'm still leveling through Shadowlands (yeah, I'm taking it very slowly there), so I'll use my BfA activities:
Daily repeats: Normal/Heroic Random Dungeon, World Quests (for reputation/pathfinder and actual guaranteed gear upgrades some of the times)
Weekly repeats: LFR
Monthly(?) repeats: Timewalking Random Dungeon

In FFXIV:
Daily repeats: Trial Roulette, Normal Raid Roulette, Alliance Raid Roulette are my main while (Expert/Leveling/MSQ/other roulettes/beast tribe depends on if I want more Tomestone/EXP/extra gear drops/certain other rewards)
Weekly repeats: Normal Raids

So, looking at what I actually like to do the most (instanced PVE content against boss enemies at a difficulty that I can simply queue for), FFXIV definitely already has more of what I want of repeatable content and it has met that expectations for 4+ years now since I started playing in January of 2017.

The only time I would stop repeating contents on FFXIV is when I'm about to abandon a character for another (like now, actually, since I'll have a new character for Endwalker), because then I feel like my effort is wasted, but I can still have fun just repeating the content if I don't think of the gains from the content.

Interesting. Do you engage in side fluff in FFXIV? Stuff like house parties, player events, and maybe even just socializing? Or do you login to do roulettes dailies and normal raids as weeklies only, or do you do something else in the game after you've done everything? And how many alts have you made as of now?

[Penthea]

Yeah, cause it's literally content that's meant to be a one and done thing.

Saying that the MSQ is non-repeatable content isn't a dig at it. It's describing it as it is.

For YOU that is the case. For those who asked for New Game+ that is not the case, and personally I have several alts so that's not the case for me either.

You are consistently mistaking content you don't want to repeat for content that is not repeatable. If you don't want to do certain content over and over again that's fine, not saying you aren't allowed to feel that way. I am saying that your preferences aren't a reference point for everyone else's preferences. (my god that last bit is a tongue twister)

I mean that Bozja is supposed to be the ShB replacement for Heaven or High.

Really I thought Bozja was supposed to be another version of Eureka, which is essentially what it is but improved. They both serve the same main purpose: content specific to getting relics. Its aspect of also being a good source of xp is a secondary feature. And I'm glad it has that secondary feature because you are correct, it is in a way replacing the lack of a ShB deep dungeon through the xp gains. But this still does not change what the main purpose of the content is intended to be.

I'm down to do Heaven or High or PoTD casually if it means I can go to lvl 80 with it (aka, add another 50 floors to it like PoTD in HW). Is it repeatable? Sure, but it does need an expansion into ShB.

I completely agree that ShB is missing a deep dungeon of its own (believe me, that disappointed me a lot) but part of the beauty of FF is old content rarely becomes entirely irrelevant due to lvl sync, players usually playing multiple classes and many rewards being cosmetic so they don't lose value like gear. Even gear itself retains value due to glam, but of course less than the point in which it was a legitimate source of a stat upgrade. Go to reddit right now and you'll see posts from people who are proud they beat floor 200 of PotD. Players are still doing that old content you do not consider repeatable.

Crafting itself is a window wherein you experience content. That's like saying NIN is repeatable content. It's not. You have to experience repeatable content through it.

Crafting what? Furniture? Oh you mean playing the market? You mean getting gil? I consider that side fluff as it necessiates the players to make the content themselves. (SE never had a hand in undercutting wars, nor do they influence the market.)

You forgot houses, apartments and fc rooms exist? People can do stuff with that furniture you know, and some people adore decorating. Some players change their decor to match the events in the game. I do this for my fc house, and I plan the decor well in advance of the event itself. I find this to be a lot of fun and my fc members always look forward to it. Never mind how tremendously useful housing is for those who rp.

Also again just because you don't find crafting fulfilling doesn't mean others do not. There is a person in my fc who specifically mains crafting. She loves it above everything else, and she is far from the only player like this. Many people in my fc really enjoy crafting, and many don't. It's not for everyone. But the point is that it's a source of enjoyment for many players.

For a time crafting and gathering was the only thing I could consistently do because of a disability that was flaring up really badly. I'm very thankful crafting and gathering is as advanced as it is because it literally kept me sane during a time when most gaming activities were out of the question. I was also able to enjoy decorating during this time. If I stayed in WoW...well pet battles would have been my only option.

Which is unfortunate really. It's really dragged down by the backend not being as snappy as it should be. There are a lot of interesting job designs in PvP that are even a lot more interesting than PvE that majority of the playerbase couldn't experience cause of how unpopular. (TK MnK was in there at one point. That was fun)

Yea I am aware the server tick doesn't do pvp any favours. It's easy to get into the rhythm of it in pve but pvp is a very different story. My boyfriend does a lot of pvp and while he does enjoy it he very regularly curses at the game over the server tick making it frustrating at times ;D

Again it's fine if you don't consider repeating certain content to be worth your time, but that does not make it worthless to everyone else as well. We're all different so we're going to like different things.

[Payotz]

For YOU that is the case. For those who asked for New Game+ that is not the case, and personally I have several alts so that's not the case for me either.

You are consistently mistaking content you don't want to repeat for content that is not repeatable. If you don't want to do certain content over and over again that's fine, not saying you aren't allowed to feel that way. I am saying that your preferences aren't a reference point for everyone else's preferences. (my god that last bit is a tongue twister)

I'm curious, how many people do you think spend their time every content drought making an alt and repeating MSQ?
And how many people do you think uses New Game+ as their own content to do whenever there is a content drought?

Really I thought Bozja was supposed to be another version of Eureka, which is essentially what it is but improved. They both serve the same main purpose: content specific to getting relics. Its aspect of also being a good source of xp is a secondary feature. And I'm glad it has that secondary feature because you are correct, it is in a way replacing the lack of a ShB deep dungeon through the xp gains. But this still does not change what the main purpose of the content is intended to be.

I'm pretty sure there's a Fan letter or something where the dev team specifically said that DD was gone because those resources went into Bozja or that there's "no DD so use Bozja instead". Actually nvm, they first said it was for the farm content that's coming in Endwalker, then they kept saying that Bozja took up most of those resources instead. Can't find the source for the second part though. It's weird.

You forgot houses, apartments and fc rooms exist? People can do stuff with that furniture you know, and some people adore decorating. Some players change their decor to match the events in the game. I do this for my fc house, and I plan the decor well in advance of the event itself. I find this to be a lot of fun and my fc members always look forward to it. Never mind how tremendously useful housing is for those who rp.

Which I honestly consider as side fluff. Nothing's wrong with Side fluff, in fact the game thrives on it.
All I'm saying is this:

See, there's a reason why most people's experience in the game is literally log in, alt+tab and do something else.
Not all players RP yes, that's why they need to add more content on top of it if these players don't wanna engage in the side fluff the game has at this time.
They need to add content too for these types of players.

All in all, the real question I want you to answer is do you think that the content FFXIV has at the time has enough staying power for 5-6 months?
If so, why? If no, what can be done with it?

[EtherRose]

If you really want to know just simply go watch all the WoW refugee videos on Youtube. They are all from people who used to play WoW and moved on to FFXIV and give reviews on why and how FFXIV is better overall and their experience with both. Personally i only played WoW for like 2 weeks back in 2006 and that was it so i can't give much on this subject. But i can say that with Blizzard re-releasing WoW classic and with people not happy with the latest Blizzcon, etc., WoW isn't doing great.

[Penthea]

I'm curious, how many people do you think spend their time every content drought making an alt and repeating MSQ?
And how many people do you think uses New Game+ as their own content to do whenever there is a content drought?

I never once made any mention of what anyone does during a content drought. All I have been doing is informing you that some of the things you don't find worth your time to do, others do find enjoyable. Which appears to be an alien concept to you.

I'm pretty sure there's a Fan letter or something where the dev team specifically said that DD was gone because those resources went into Bozja or that there's "no DD so use Bozja instead". Actually nvm, they first said it was for the farm content that's coming in Endwalker, then they kept saying that Bozja took up most of those resources instead. Can't find the source for the second part though. It's weird.

It's like you forgot that Eureka and HoH came in the same expansion. Maybe you did forget. At this point I don't know because frankly you seem to be willfully ignoring the idea that not everyone gets fun out of the game the same way you do.

All in all, the real question I want you to answer is do you think that the content FFXIV has at the time has enough staying power for 5-6 months?
If so, why? If no, what can be done with it?

Again here I could inform you of the many things players can do and the many things other players enjoy that you do not, which in some cases is enough for them to still have fun up until the next patch but honestly I just give up. You have no intention of trying to understand that not everyone approaches the game the way you do.

Also SE have said many times they don't want the game to force everyone to log in every single day. They want us to have time to do other things. Maybe if you're bored then do something else with your time instead of being puzzled that there are players who enjoy doing the msq more than once, enjoy crafting and a lot of other things you deem irrelevant.