You dont need the story.

[TheMightyMollusk]

I feel the opposite. I think they should make all cutscenes unskippable the first time you see them. And then quiz you at the end of each patch and if you fail the quiz you have to rewatch it all.

okay calm down satan

[SavishSalacious]

Once the story is optional or broken up like WoW, they don't have to care about it as much, and that's a slippery slope I'm not willing to risk just because someone can't afford to go through the story (even if they have to skip every cutscene and mash through every dialog box and/or pay to boost the earlier MSQ).

And the prime example of this is WoW. It's such a convoluted mess with how the story quests are so disconnected and certain quests just disappear or no longer require certain other quests on a much more frequent basis than FFXIV.

Why would you use wow as an example. the story of that game HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. You are just there to do fetch quests to get shiny pixels.

[linayar]

I don't think WoW is a prime example, the story even in the old days was always all over the place (before level up characters (skip potions), or the alternate start). WoW's story was originally less retconned and weirdly anime (and not in the good way), but that's separate from the whole MSQ not important bit of WoW. WoW has always been a bit 'story smory' (OOH FANCY CUTSCENE, and then immediately back into 'story smory').

There is a potential they see story as not important after a bunch of people prove it (that's a big if, but we're assuming under your concern that SE sees that it makes sense not to care), but I doubt SE would do that (I assume they would always keep story as something they put a lot of effort into and bind to game, if some people skip some of that (like via an alternate start), which technically they already can it's just very heavy handed method (potions and or literally skipping scene after scene), then I think "if they want sure, game is still fine for me").

It's fine you think it's a risk but I don't think it's one and I don't think WoW is a good example of that (of an alternate start messing up the story) either since it's delivery has been pretty consistent in terms of "whatever if you do, whatever if you don't" - there wasn't really a sudden change (if anything you might argue they cared a bit more on presentation later with some fancy cutcscenes, even if it's still a bit wildly placed). I also think it's helpful SE sees why you say no, since then they could see "well if we just don't do that (disconnect the importance of story), they'll actually be fine" lol.

It's a slippery slope because the idea here is based on feedback. You say they won't, but once they give up this idea that story quests are what drives content, and therefore content will be locked behind them and you have to do certain quests in order, then you open up to more requests by more incoming players who don't care about story to make it even more optional.

The other side to it is that it can introduce more bugs when you allow more variation. And yes, WoW is a prime example because there are several ways that a player can access an expansion's content, for example, and things could just break if you don't happen to have the right criteria and people sometimes cannot help you because their experiences may not be the same as you.

Why would you use wow as an example. the story of that game HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. You are just there to do fetch quests to get shiny pixels.

Yes, that's a fine example to use for my point.

[Shougun]

It's a slippery slope because the idea here is based on feedback. You say they won't, but once they give up this idea that story quests are what drives content, and therefore content will be locked behind them and you have to do certain quests in order, then you open up to more requests by more incoming players who don't care about story to make it even more optional.

The other side to it is that it can introduce more bugs when you allow more variation. And yes, WoW is a prime example because there are several ways that a player can access an expansion's content, for example, and things could just break if you don't happen to have the right criteria and people sometimes cannot help you because their experiences may not be the same as you.

Fair concern in so much that if it happened it would be unfortunate (game story takes a back seat), but of course as said I don't think they would.. but who knows maybe Yoshida steps down and the next person is like "pfft, story.." *delete*. I make the suggestion purely under the constrains that the story wouldn't be done like that.

As for the last bit I still think you're stretching prime example, there are a few bugs in which they could fix (if Blizzard cared to, they still have bugs in some of their starting areas. . . . . . . . . .). To me that doesn't say anything other than maybe Blizzard should have tried harder. You've got bugs, an issue but not unsolvable and something SE has already done some work with (MSQ+ and the potions), and then that Blizzard just doesn't handle story well since.. ever. . Neither are prime examples on why an alternate start would be an issue, imo (the concern of story becoming unimportant is there, but that's not a prime example of wow in relationship to the alternate starts- since it was a thing before it).

Your prime examples to me are prime examples on why Blizzard is an issue lol, they could fix their bugs or they could have made story more important - they just didn't.

[linayar]

Your prime examples to me are prime examples on why Blizzard is an issue lol, they could fix their bugs or they could have made story more important - they just didn't.

It's my prime example is because WoW is a known entity in this type of game, and one that I am somewhat familiar with as a current player. The point is that WoW displays qualities with regard to story quests that I do not want to see FFXIV emulating, and any diminishment of the mandatory nature of the story (especially MSQ) could lead to that end.

On the bright side, WoW has taken a certain FFXIV feature: designating special icons for main quests. I approve. They should do more to emulate FFXIV in this case.

[SturmChurro]

I was met with if you don't like the story then don't play the game. I had to clarify I do actually like the story (minus some bits here and there that felt like filler, some of it was pruned though) and I just think it's silly to force people through, literally, hundred + hours of story they are probably not interested in if they wanted to get into the tighter gameplay content sooner (those who were wouldn't be taking this optional start, most likely- and even if they did they have MSQ+ to enjoy it later).

If someone was excited for an expansion for content coming out in the expansion then having to do the like 60-90 hours for ARR and then about 30-50 hours for each expansion there after to catch up is more work than most "best RPGs of all time" games, some of those to near or actual 100% completion. To me it was "for those who are not as invested into the story yet and or need a more exciting hook, this could be neat". As it would be optional, and because of our MSQ+ system it wouldn't ruin the opportunity to go back (and would allow it to actually be content for current players as well since they could new game + it). It was made clear there wouldn't be a change to how story works with the game, if someone chose to alternate start they did and if they didn't they didn't the core building of the game wasn't to be changed- just allow different types of players, those who aren't sold on the 150+ hour pre-investment to get to the content they wanted for example (or those who need a more peppy start, since imo FFXIV's start could use with some more pizazz). It's one thing to have 20-40 hours of investment needed or staying current with content vs having 100-200 movies worth of story before you're where you wanted to be

Yep! Exact same here. For having any criticism of the story, or new player experience, many just assume I myself don't like it. No, I actually like it. I watched and read the whole thing from start to "finish", I enjoyed ARR personally. I was in no rush to get to endgame. I just think SE could do things better, and make it easier for new players to get into this game.

Yep, it's a gigantic amount of time investment for many players to get to the part of the game they may enjoy, and the only way to get there is by paying for a skip. I also don't like the idea of a story skip personally, but new game+ (apparently) alleviates this. Many players will see the cost of both a story skip and level boost, and think it's not worth it, or simply get burned out by the sheer amount of story they have to get through. The gameplay is largely not fun for many people while leveling, not many skills, mechanics don't matter, etc..

[Shougun]

Yep! Exact same here. For having any criticism of the story, or new player experience, many just assume I myself don't like it. No, I actually like it. I watched and read the whole thing from start to "finish", I enjoyed ARR personally. I was in no rush to get to endgame. I just think SE could do things better, and make it easier for new players to get into this game.

Yep, it's a gigantic amount of time investment for many players to get to the part of the game they may enjoy, and the only way to get there is by paying for a skip. I also don't like the idea of a story skip personally, but new game+ (apparently) alleviates this. Many players will see the cost of both a story skip and level boost, and think it's not worth it, or simply get burned out by the sheer amount of story they have to get through.

Yeah I think if you've the patience and mild interest in what is from the start then DO THE WHOLE THING, but if you're like "I WANT TO GET TO THE CONTENT I BOUGHT INTO THE GAME FOR".. then hearing "250 hour" wall is like "BYE NOW" lol.

If someone told me ShB was AMAZING but I had to do 200 hours of content to get there and I thought ARR was just okay, I would quit. That's just... ew. You have to sell to me that all 200+ hours are AMAZING for me to buy into that sort of investment. I spent 120 hours on Witcher 3 and I did every single quest. Are you telling me that those 200+ hours are going to be equal to Witcher 3 or better? I know some people will say yes others no, but my point is just "that is a really big ask, might be easier to get people in smoother or something first lol"

It's nice they pruned ARR, I imagine that is helping already.

[SturmChurro]

Yeah I think if you've the patience and mild interest in what is from the start then DO THE WHOLE THING, but if you're like "I WANT TO GET TO THE CONTENT I BOUGHT INTO THE GAME FOR".. then hearing "250 hour" wall is like "BYE NOW" lol.

If someone told me ShB was AMAZING but I had to do 200 hours of content to get there and I thought ARR was just okay, I would quit. That's just... ew. You have to sell to me that all 200+ hours are AMAZING for me to buy into that sort of investment. I spent 120 hours on Witcher 3 and I did every single quest. Are you telling me that those 200+ hours are going to be equal to Witcher 3 or better? I know some people will say yes others no, but my point is just "that is a really big ask, might be easier to get people in smoother or something first lol"

It's nice they pruned ARR, I imagine that is helping already.

200 hours of content someone may find boring blocking them from access to content they may not find boring is too much. While I understand this game is story-based, it is also a themepark MMORPG. It can (and does) cater to both types of players.

However, I don't necessarily agree with pruning, or cutting of ARR story content. That's story content lost forever, bits that can give further context, etc. I'd rather they figure out a way to re-implement this stuff different than outright cut.

[linayar]

200 hours of content someone may find boring blocking them from access to content they may not find boring is too much. While I understand this game is story-based, it is also a themepark MMORPG. It can (and does) cater to both types of players.

However, I don't necessarily agree with pruning, or cutting of ARR story content. That's story content lost forever, bits that can give further context, etc. I'd rather they figure out a way to re-implement this stuff different than outright cut.

That's why we have a $25 story boost to accommodate those people.

Of course, they then get to endgame and realize they only like Ultimate which appears only once (or twice if they're lucky) per a 2-year expansion.

In a way, I see the story being there not to block people but to inform people that this is a main focus, and if they're about to spend money/invest long term in this game, they might as well experience it and see if they like to continue with the game.

Yes, there are people who may enjoy the game at endgame anyway, but again, that's why there's a story boost for those people. Nothing else is needed other than further refinements to the MSQ for people who are willing to go through with it.

[Shougun]

200 hours of content someone may find boring blocking them from access to content they may not find boring is too much. While I understand this game is story-based, it is also a themepark MMORPG. It can (and does) cater to both types of players.

However, I don't necessarily agree with pruning, or cutting of ARR story content. That's story content lost forever, bits that can give further context, etc. I'd rather they figure out a way to re-implement this stuff different than outright cut.

Wait.. I thought the pruning moved them aside to other quests.. no?

That's really unfortunate if so. I haven't replayed the MSQ with the feature so I wouldn't know, thought it was an awesome feature they added I just haven't felt the need yet since I feel I remember the important bits still well enough.

Full agree that it shouldn't be removed. Also why when I was talking about the alternate start that you could still go back and do all the old content once you knew you wanted to invest deeper. Also I thought by leaving the rewards in the old quests you could boost it further, say like getting that free fantasia for the MSQ . If someone alternate started and wanted a cool mount, do the old MSQ, free fantasia? do the msq, etc. Naturally some of the quest unlocks can't be kept behind that though otherwise it's all messed up and pointless, buuut you could keep many of fancy rewards locked away in 'memory' until they recall it.

I was pretty happy with some of the ideas too for the alternate start, one for much later (not yet) where you might fall into the void (like Cloud into mako), and like the Cloud scene with Tifa (putting together your fragments, learning about combat, some dream like scapes, hopefully some wonderfully dramatic acting lines from your friends you need to learn about), but now with Emet (who is haphazardly directing you back together, and plucking you back out), when you get out you carry on with ShB where when you meet Emet he puts a finger to his lips and a mischievous smile (minor modification like if you're a legacy player).

Or another like one was based off the HW trailer where you're on a mountain in a snow storm, yet here then you get swept off by an avalanche into a small ishgard hamlet, hobbling your way to the village (learning movements), a claw shatters through like glass in a dream (classic FF transition) and ultima weapon does a beam attack (think some of the transition effects from the anime movie Paprika), given slow motion you have to dodge the attack (learning mechanics), then another, then the claws rip the entire scene away revealing a battle ground where you'll have a few skills, some reveal as the battle goes onto another phase, opportunity to have some of our npc friends jump in, a few quick times, and then as you collapse the scenery goes back to the ishgard hamlet with an npc helping drag you to their house, where you can pick up some quests, learn a little bit the area (and more systems), etc, remember a few things as you go- while finding a flower near the water you might think of Y'sholta or something, hear your chocobo cry, head to ishgard, meet up with Aymeric, have some tea, get to ask more questions, gain some quests that point you to further MSQ tasks and side tasks (like go visit the golden saucer). Massive spark notes version of it all.. I wrote quite a bit on it a long while ago lol.

As far as the game is concerned, lore wise, you did those tasks you just knocked your head a bit too hard, fell in the void, acting silly, or whatever. But due to MSQ+ you can get back to them and 'remember'. When I was playing ShB as a test I was noting things that I would be totally lost on if I hadn't played the other games, I came to the conclusion you might have missed some nuance but you'd not be lost. When they bring up things they usually self describe immediately, like bringing up white auracite again.

Anyway lol . . .

Like the story, I just imagine if I was trying to sell something to someone that the bigger this wall gets that the harder it is going to be to sell(that wall also having issues in that later content is designed by a more experienced team, as they've had more content to make and learn from, so technically you would expect the best stuff to be further away from you, so not only not what you probably joined the game for when you heard about expansion advertisement but also farther away from the good stuff - it can quickly become a painting of "the slog I have to do, to get to the stuff I want to do" and if ARR doesn't grip you tightly then it's likely to spit you out instead), and spending an extra 40% of the game price to avoid the wall is not the solution to making it easier to sell lol (nor even if it was free do I think that's a good solution, potion is bad at 'delivering' players into the game).

While I think skipping the story and then calling it bad is a bit silly.. I honestly really don't care if someone skipped every single line of dialog or story if they were still having fun ANDDDD the story isn't ruined because of it lol (big and, I am not suggesting making story not relate to our dungeons or primals, or whatever else, I'm fine that in general the game asks you to do a content to do another content- just that this concept given time can turn into a huge mountain and one I don't think is good to grow forever without relief, so adding some 'inlets' occasionally could be wise).