Gil stolen through market board

[Vahlnir]

If you believe it's bad faith, I'm skeptical you read or understood my stated position on why I think it matters.

People should be advocating for a better housing system in the first place because the current model encourages players to either spam click for hours on end or find a hardware or software based method of doing it - which has ultimately the same impact on gameplay. The rule everyone points to as to what's wrong with using an auto-clicker (while ignoring the problem with people manually clicking for 14 hours straight) is the use of third party software, even though it doesn't interact with or modify the game client. If ruled to include that kind of software, and applied in a consistent way, that would be an overreach as it would additionally encompass accessibility software, thus excluding people from play based on the equipment they need to do so.

I'd even go further as to say that we should indeed be skeptical that the rule encompasses that type of software considering OP's account seems active, but that's not really the crux of my case, it's just bonus points.

I think everyone wants a better housing system. To be honest, that isn't even up for debate. The system we have sucks. Period. And they should be actively pushing for something better, yes. That doesn't change the fact that auto clicker programs are against the ToS. You can argue semantics all day and get nowhere if that's your thing, but that doesn't change a thing. It's against the ToS. No sympathy from me for those who use such things. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think everyone understands what you're saying for the most part. They just don't agree. And, quite frankly, you aren't actually making a good argument to begin with. You are saying a lot of words but that's basically it. You can say as many of them as you want and/or as fanciful as you want. It won't make you look more intelligent.

I'm also guessing most of the reason the OP's account remains active/unbanned is because it's more of a "he said/she said" sort of thing. There's no hard proof that anything happened. Just...a screenshot which doesn't provide actual proof and their words. It's not hard to put 2 and 2 together for most of us, but there needs to be actual evidence for account actions. And I doubt the OP will report themselves for their "stolen" gil.

[Tint]

How it is this thread still going? Shouldn't the cm shut this thread off.

Yes they should. At least to protect the OP from harassing. People think they are a cheater and their character name and server are on display here.

[Saefinn]

No this is accurate but what everyone parroting this refuses to grapple with is that taping a button down is an equivalent level of automation in terms of gameplay. Holding it down with my finger while using mouse settings to cause that to read as rapid clicking is, additionally, the same level of automation. Manually clicking the same spot with my actual finger with netflix open on another screen for 14 hours straight, thus circumventing the intended method of acquiring a house, is the same level of gameplay automation. There has yet to be a persuasive case in this thread as to why an autoclicker would fall under this ruling while any of these other methods don't.

It's not an equivalent level of gameplay. The click spamming is using tools build within the game and doesn't break or exploit any game systems or gain an unfair advantage. Adding automation through autoclicking adds a greater advantage. Manual clicking takes work and endurance, they have to stop for toilet breaks, they might have to go to work, they might have to eat, sleep and have a life during the time they're trying to get a house, whilst your autoclicker can set and forget and have all the advantage.

Manual clickers have a higher chance the more work they put in. Auto clickers have the advantage over somebody who puts all the effort in. It's an unauthorised tool that gives an unfair advantage of those in game and would be an exploit whereas the manual clickers would not by comparison. I think software to aid disability would be a stretch of interpreting the ToS, YoshiP went more into depth into their stance with what their stance is regarding third party tools, it edged more towards tools that give an unfair advantage or result in griefing.

If you believe it's bad faith, I'm skeptical you read or understood my stated position on why I think it matters.

People should be advocating for a better housing system in the first place because the current model encourages players to either spam click for hours on end or find a hardware or software based method of doing it - which has ultimately the same impact on gameplay. The rule everyone points to as to what's wrong with using an auto-clicker (while ignoring the problem with people manually clicking for 14 hours straight) is the use of third party software, even though it doesn't interact with or modify the game client. If ruled to include that kind of software, and applied in a consistent way, that would be an overreach as it would additionally encompass accessibility software, thus excluding people from play based on the equipment they need to do so.

I'd even go further as to say that we should indeed be skeptical that the rule encompasses that type of software considering OP's account seems active, but that's not really the crux of my case, it's just bonus points.

I 100% advocate for a better housing system. I've given my feedback in relevant housing threads of how I think it should be resolved.

But also having gone through the trouble of being somebody trying to get a house without using a 3rd party tool for an RP event I run, so I could go through with ideas I have for it, I had to put in a lot of time and effort with no guaranteed outcome and finding people show up with bots grasping and advantage I don't have because I was being legit. Whilst they could set and forget, I'd have to compete against them or cut my losses.

So yes, I also advocate people who make a crappy system crappier for those who aren't using exploits getting a bit of karma.

I got one in the end at least.

[TurtlesAWD]

I think everyone wants a better housing system. To be honest, that isn't even up for debate. The system we have sucks. Period. And they should be actively pushing for something better, yes. That doesn't change the fact that auto clicker programs are against the ToS. You can argue semantics all day and get nowhere if that's your thing, but that doesn't change a thing. It's against the ToS. No sympathy from me for those who use such things. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Here's that "obedience to authority" thing again - whoever said following the ToS was inherently right? It certainly wouldn't be righteous by virtue of being an authority - Terms of service are frequently not legally binding, this is generally because there's limitations on what a game can limit you as a person from doing or what kind of information they can gather about you.

I think everyone understands what you're saying for the most part. They just don't agree. And, quite frankly, you aren't actually making a good argument to begin with. You are saying a lot of words but that's basically it. You can say as many of them as you want and/or as fanciful as you want. It won't make you look more intelligent.

Their reasons for disagreeing have seemed pretty arbitrary and inconsistent, so I remain unpersuaded. Also, "having a lot of words" isn't a good reason for me to believe I'm not correct, sorry. Do you believe the game rules should be applied consistently and universally? Do you believe the method of systemic circumvention matters more than the outcome? If you don't have any beliefs, that's fine - then don't have an opinion on the subject. If you do believe something, you have to follow through with that in a consistent way, or you just look arbitrary.

I'm also guessing most of the reason the OP's account remains active/unbanned is because it's more of a "he said/she said" sort of thing. There's no hard proof that anything happened. Just...a screenshot which doesn't provide actual proof and their words. It's not hard to put 2 and 2 together for most of us, but there needs to be actual evidence for account actions. And I doubt the OP will report themselves for their "stolen" gil.

Do you think the ToS should encompass rulings about software the game can never even know whether or not you've used?

It's not an equivalent level of gameplay. The click spamming is using tools build within the game and doesn't break or exploit any game systems or gain an unfair advantage. Adding automation through autoclicking adds a greater advantage. Manual clicking takes work and endurance, they have to stop for toilet breaks, they might have to go to work, they might have to eat, sleep and have a life during the time they're trying to get a house, whilst your autoclicker can set and forget and have all the advantage.

Manual clickers have a higher chance the more work they put in. Auto clickers have the advantage over somebody who puts all the effort in. It's an unauthorised tool that gives an unfair advantage of those in game and would be an exploit whereas the manual clickers would not by comparison. I think software to aid disability would be a stretch of interpreting the ToS, YoshiP went more into depth into their stance with what their stance is regarding third party tools, it edged more towards tools that give an unfair advantage or result in griefing

You can't "earn" something that's random - buying more lotto tickets doesn't entitle someone to winning the jackpot. Housing isn't a goal to be clicked towards and the method you're describing is just a less efficient way of circumventing the system via the same brute force method.

[Kes13a]

Here's that "obedience to authority" thing again - whoever said following the ToS was inherently right? It certainly wouldn't be righteous by virtue of being an authority - Terms of service are frequently not legally binding, this is generally because there's limitations on what a game can limit you as a person from doing or what kind of information they can gather about you.

not sure exactly what you are getting at here.

sounds more like cheating is just a way to flout your independence? rules that people follow, are a bad thing?
please feel free to clarify your position here.. extensively, because it sounds an awful lot like you are meaning the TOS doesnt affect your free spirit and you can do what you want without consequence.

[Saefinn]

You can't "earn" something that's random - buying more lotto tickets doesn't entitle someone to winning the jackpot. Housing isn't a goal to be clicked towards and the method you're describing is just a less efficient way of circumventing the system via the same brute force method.

I made no claim that you "earn" it, so please don't put words in my mouth. You can put in a boatload of effort and find there's no reward at the end.

My claim was that you put more work into it to increase your chances. Autoclickers have the highest chance and the lowest effort and is using an unauthorised third party tool to do it. The exploit is setting and forgetting a tool that gives you an unfair advantage. Buying more lottery tickets increases your changes of winning the lottery. Who is more likely to win on a cactpot each week? The person who buys 1 ticket or somebody who buys all the tickets.

So no there isn't equivalency here.
The manual method: this person tries more times in hope they'll get it.
The automated method: they leave their computer to do it for them.

[Penthea]

So let's say I'm at a mining node, and I line up the node and the prompt window underneath my mouse cursor, set it to click, and pop away from my desk to go stare at the clouds or something. Is this something that simply isn't actually occurring since by your criteria activities require more than 1 input, so my character has entered a state of non-existence?

By mining a node once with one button press you are interacting with it only once because you need only one button to do that. If you want to keep mining continuously you need to press more than one button because once a node has depleted you have to move to another one, which requires additional commands. There is nothing you can do endlessly in this game with one singular constant button press aside from automoving in a single direction.

How about when I had thousands of items to desynth before the shortcut toggle? Pretty much just me lining 2 prompts up and spam clicking. Some with lockboxes or bozja fragment apprasial, I'm just mashing 0 to continue.

Still not one constant button press. Mashing one button is not one singular command, it's many individual commands.

Is this likewise true for buying a house? I dunno, you tell me. Would the person who tricked OP out of their gil had been able to predict which part of the screen they'd be clicking to buy those items if there wasn't some way to line the prompts up to make it happen with 1 input?

As far as I'm aware the autoclicker targets the closest interactable environmental object, which is how it can target the placard over and over again. If a player makes a retainer the closest interactable environmental object then the autoclicker will interact with that instead. Or perhaps autoclickers are flawed and can misfire to another equally close object and then target that instead of the placard. Whichever it is players are able to make autoclickers interact with something other than a placard, depending on the autoclicker's character position.

Do you think that would be grounds for suspension as outlined in the third party software clause in the TOS? Do you think autoclickers have no accessibility utility.?

I'm disabled and I have used automation for this game, but only the automation that I am permitted to use. My disability affects the mobility in my hands so if I need to craft many of the same item that cannot be quicksynthed I make a macro so I don't cause myself physical pain with too many repeated inputs. But this is not an invasive form of automation because it doesn't affect other players at all. My automated crafts don't prevent someone else from crafting the same item. They don't prevent someone else from getting or doing anything. It literally has no effect on anyone but myself. The macro only affects my personal experience.

Which is why accessibility cannot be compared with using an autoclicker for purchasing a house. Using an autoclicker for that purpose can affect other players, and it can prevent them from being able to do something if you are successful in your goal; buying a house. True accessibility enhances the user experience without inhibiting other people. It wouldn't be qualified as accessibility if in exchange for making something easier for yourself you automatically make it harder for someone else. Wheelchair access doesn't inhibit people who can walk. Braille on signs doesn't make text difficult to read for sighted people. Subtitles don't make it more difficult to hear audio. Autoclicking a placard to buy a house automatically makes it more difficult for others to get a house so it therefore cannot qualify as engaging in accessibility. It's cheating.

[Berkilak]

I'm loving this gamer equivalent to "sovereign citizenry" being espoused here.

[Mavrias]

Lol, it's like OP stopped looking at this thread long ago because they're too busy playing their unbanned account so you're using me as a surrogate. Truly a rejection of reality on so many levels. Astounding.

literally what are you talking about. what rejection of reality? a statement of, yeah Square doesn't actually care that much about any illegal programs whatsoever but its super embarrassing that you tried to get your gil by accusing another player of cheating, is using you as a surrogate for them?

[TurtlesAWD]

not sure exactly what you are getting at here.

sounds more like cheating is just a way to flout your independence? rules that people follow, are a bad thing?
please feel free to clarify your position here.. extensively, because it sounds an awful lot like you are meaning the TOS doesnt affect your free spirit and you can do what you want without consequence.

As it happens, I'd say what I generally want to do is play the game and interact with other people fairly and equitably. I mostly trust myself to do this. I imagine a ToS will generally line up with that and can likewise be mostly trusted to represent a fair set of agreements for people to abide by. But let's not pretend these are commandments handed down from god, or moral absolutes argued from first principles, or that unpredicted cases can't arise - and let's not pretend like this thread's decision on what the ToS says is the correct interpretation as a consequence of this thread being in agreement with itself. If there was a subset of players who required a tool excluded by definition due to a disability, that would be better if it were changed - or ignored because the needs of players in that case outweigh the value in obedience to a rule which would consequently exclude them from normal play.

So no there isn't equivalency here.
The manual method: this person tries more times in hope they'll get it.
The automated method: they leave their computer to do it for them.

These things are the same to me - systemic circumvention with the same gameplay impact for the user and for other players. Ideally neither would occur. One isn't more worthy of punishment by virtue of being more persistent - get a wireless mouse and click while you piss, no one is stopping you.

literally what are you talking about. what rejection of reality? a statement of, yeah Square doesn't actually care that much about any illegal programs whatsoever but its super embarrassing that you tried to get your gil by accusing another player of cheating, is using you as a surrogate for them?

Uh yeah dude that wasn't me and this never happened. Are you okay? Who do you believe made this thread?