Instead of cutting Ultimate from 5.5 why not cut bozja?

[van_arn]

I understand that but for a game to grow in its own it has to break away for wow unless you want FFXIV to be known as a "Wow clone"

It is a wow clone, though. It's always been a wow clone since ARR. It will always be a wow clone.

It's a wow clone in the same way XI was an Everquest clone.

This is fine. Square puts their own spin on things.

I want more people to play FFXIV. If that means other games have great features we can use here, then we need them too. Especially if Square can implement them with their own spin.

[Starflake]

If there is anything I have taken away from this whole debate, it's that the "casual" playerbase is the most toxic online community I have ever seen and confirms my suspicion that this community is a positive toxic one. It almost makes me physically ill to think off how two faced and "good" this community is. Blindly defending a company that just wishes to bank on you. Like kissing the ball that chains you.

The fact that I as a player who only plays this game to raid, really has to wait for over two years for a piece of actual challenging content and over three years for a new Deep Dungeon (I like to solo) is ridiculous. The fact I have to eat it up, even more so. It just shows you what place we have in the line. 48 man savage? Pretty nice content actually, but good luck organizing it. New Blue Mage? Why even do it? For a title? It's just reused content after all with a bit of Blue Mage spice. Mahjong? Triple Triad updates? Constant crafter and gatherer changes? Parasols? Monk "rework"? Flying in ARR?

Like to me, it seems they put in so much crap nobody even asked for or it just blows my mind how it was prioritized over working on an actual Ultimate. Remember, original Ultimate supposed to be 5.3 but delayed as to spread it out towards the end of the expansion cycle. Which I thought was a great idea. But it means during all this time, they prioritized all this fluff stuff over actual content. Content that has not been in the game for so long. Even then, I took it on the chin. But for SE to come and say this so late into the tier is a disgusting move. I would not have spent any money on this game if I didn't think I needed to get BiS for Ultimate. It's shady and I as a customer feel blatantly used through omission of information. People keep moaning about covid-19 and SE. I have a difficult time too during the pandemic! I would have spent the 50 euros I could have saved on something else instead. Now to me it's just wasted money. I immediately quit, haven't even finished the tier as I don't care.

[Vahlnir]

If there is anything I have taken away from this whole debate, it's that the "casual" playerbase is the most toxic online community I have ever seen and confirms my suspicion that this community is a positive toxic one. It almost makes me physically ill to think off how two faced and "good" this community is. Blindly defending a company that just wishes to bank on you. Like kissing the ball that chains you.

It's shady and I as a customer feel blatantly used through omission of information. People keep moaning about covid-19 and SE. I have a difficult time too during the pandemic! I would have spent the 50 euros I could have saved on something else instead. Now to me it's just wasted money. I immediately quit, haven't even finished the tier as I don't care.

You're painting with a pretty broad stroke there. Does FF XIV's player base have it's own brand of toxicity? Yeah, but that isn't everyone. I don't particularly care for being called something I'm not. I'm a casual with a lot of time and activity put into the game, and I never kiss the ball and chain. I'm usually very vocal on the forums if I disagree with them on something. I am also one of the least toxic casuals you will ever meet (in my opinion at least, I'm sure someone hates me somewhere though!) I do agree that the devs prioritize the wrong things at times though when more pressing matters should be attended to first. However, as far as this topic goes...it was the new expansion, or a new ultimate. They literally could not do both with how things are set up over there. So...pick your poison. A new expansion, at least another half a year away from the intended release date, or a new raid full of mini bosses. They had to prioritize what would upset the least amount of people, and that is exactly what they did. I don't think they should have had to made that call, but they said why. And it was completely understandable. You don't even have to believe them for their reasoning, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be true. You are also free to feel upset by this. That is also understandable. Good luck on your travels I guess. You won't find 0 toxicity regardless anywhere on the internet. Just...try not to be so judgy at your next destination, yeah? Especially when you don't even see the full picture.

[WaterShield]

If it's so predictable where were the Ultimates for Heavensward? It still is second guessing because they have changed content structures before, just not in a wildly different way. Maybe they try some new things with 6.x due to it starting a new arc of the story, maybe they don't even release the Ultimate that they were designing and they do something else with it and people get even more angry, who knows?

What an interesting argument. Where was the Ultimate for Heavensward? You mean, before they started doing them? The precedent was started in Stormblood.

[Starflake]

You're painting with a pretty broad stroke there. Does FF XIV's player base have it's own brand of toxicity? Yeah, but that isn't everyone. I don't particularly care for being called something I'm not. I do agree that the devs prioritize the wrong things at times though when more pressing matters should be attended to first. However, as far as this topic goes...it was the new expansion, or a new ultimate. They literally could not do both with how things are set up over there. So...pick your poison. A new expansion, at most another half a year away from the intended release date, or a new raid full of mini bosses. They had to prioritize what would upset the least amount of people, and that is exactly what they did. I don't think they should have had to made that call, but they said why. And it was completely understandable. You don't even have to believe them for their reasoning, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be true. You are also free to feel upset by this. That is also understandable. Good luck on your travels I guess. You won't find 0 toxicity regardless anywhere on the internet.

Are we still at this immature stage where one has to clarify that obviously not all people are as I stated. You don't have to treat me like a toddler mate, I know the nuance and I expect this to be basic knowledge. Also I don't even know who you are but I guess you feel as if you are targeted ("I don't particularly care for being called something I'm not"). Maybe an eye opener for you.

Quite convenient is it, that the content originally scheduled for August 11th last year had to be sacrificed to release the expansion on time, which is of course also delayed by the courtesy of Covid-19. We already have a delayed expansion. So again, I am asking why we got all this fluff nobody asked for and put their resources into Ultimate instead. Because you seem to ignore what I am actually saying. I am questioning if it really is that black and white (expansion v Ultimate). Seems to me a lot of bad decisions releasing content that's prioritized over an Ultimate. Nah this game has gotten incredibly lazy and I'm not afraid to say it. Reskinned content, Shadowbringers has been the absolute worst. I have seen very little actual originality at all and Ultimates follow that same pattern. Which is also why 6.1 is the final chance for me and I will quit the game.

What I am seeing this expansion:

- A lot of Mogstation stuff
- A lot of reskinning (poor gear sets, not much choice)
- A lot of reskinning of mobs (same skeletons etc)
- No Deep Dungeon
- Extremes quite poor (increasingly easy)


But most important for me personally, the raiding. We'll probably have three Unreal trials by the way by the end of the expansion? Again, it's a reused extremes which is using up resources. I just see so much in this expansion which could and actually should have given way to the Ultimate. But hey man, it's whatever for me. I lost 50 euros for no reason and I'm not touching the game till the next Expansion. SE is not your friend. They are greedy and they want your money. They don't love you.

[Kaurhz]

Snip

Equal amounts of toxicity on both ends of the spectrum, especially in this thread. A lot of the comments you would find be more tamer if the initial proposal and feedback weren't akin to "Cut content I dislike"; whether the content is disliked by someone or not is not reason enough to make the comment, so of course you'll find people all the more eager to jump to the bait.

The outlined post title and what is proposed here solves 1 problem to create an equally bad problem for others. sure, you'll get Ultimate, but then people who genuinely enjoy the story get that cut short, so would people that genuinely enjoy the new large scale raids, people who actually enjoy Bozja, community feedback from this perspective is only going to be on behalf of that individual versus representative of the community at large, so your perception could equally be different from what is a reality in terms of feedback. That said, this implies in the first place that simply cutting or delaying content would create the resources for Ultimate to be done on time; coming to terms with how many of those working on Bozja, etc would be competent enough to handle the implementation or testing of Ultimate in the first place. If it would, then it's a different argument, but it's an awfully bold statement to make all things considered with it. They've done many questionable things this expansion otherwise, and I do agree personally with many things, but again...

All this does is potentially solves 1 problem by creating an entirely different problem. Where you guys would be happy, another equally, if not larger segment of the player base would be unhappy, so there's a certain level of hypocrisy that comes from this. It was in the end a no-win situation!

Now if we want to propose things that they could have done, then one could start of simply by how much development overhead would be required by allowing BLU to enter into Ultimates as a form of 'band-aid'.. If a party enters in with a complete BLU composition, then they could negate the original achievement for "The Legend" and then instead have another, a separate achievement like "Legend of the Blue" or something to compensate and make a distinction between those that do clear with BLU and those that don't. This additionally addresses their comment and fear of "We don't want people to potentially cheese Ultimates by using Blue Mage".

Again though, proposing a solution that drops 1 piece of content for another is not a solution at all, just trades places of 1 content with another. Whilst trading satisfaction between 2 separate 'spectrums' of the community. Doesn't make for a very productive conversation at all, so arguably the toxicity could be narrowed down to the original, counterproductive, and instigating suggestions. Someone with 500+ posts on this forum should know and be completely conscious of the backlash that would occur with such comments. I, like many, do feel for Ultimate-level raiders, but this was a no-win situation for everyone. I especially sympathize about PotD/HoH, but I would rather they innovate further on Deep Dungeon and the mechanics/concepts behind it than simply just a change of scenery with a new pomander.

There's been a severe lapse in judgment on many decisions they've made this expansion, no dispute, but I don't think they could forecast COVID, or it being this severe.

[Starflake]

[QUOTE=Kaurhz;5505101]snip/QUOTE]

Haha this man has his toxicity meter ready at the hand to make out it's just about an even battle in toxic behaviour from people! I don't know why you have typed this wall of text that has nothing to do with what I am saying. Why even quote me at all to be honest? You are arguing with the OP's title and suggestion. One I have not made at all. So what's the point of this? At least your final paragraph has something to work with.
While sacrificing one piece of content for another does not inherently solve anything, it can be discussed if it's a good move or not. Releasing not a single Ultimate in over two years and a Deep Dungeon in over three years? Seems to me to that one of these two at least should be implemented over some of the things I mentioned above?
Again, I am not having these excuses, even though I know you mean well.

[WaterShield]

Well i said how i really feel about that and im pretty sure there is stuff that i do where others would feel like its a waste of lifetime. The difference between them and me is that i dont care, i just said what i think about it. If you wanna react to that or not is up to you.

Prioritizing content that is for everyone over something that is only for a very small group is only logical, nothing more nothing less.

If you don't care about it so much, why are you arguing about it so much? Seems like a "waste of lifetime" to me. Seriously confusing.

[Vahlnir]

Are we still at this immature stage where one has to clarify that obviously not all people are as I stated. You don't have to treat me like a toddler mate, I know the nuance and I expect this to be basic knowledge. Also I don't even know who you are but I guess you feel as if you are targeted ("I don't particularly care for being called something I'm not"). Maybe an eye opener for you.

Not really. Heck, believe it or not I'm not even offended. That takes a lot to do. I don't know who you are either, and it can stay that way. Mostly just wanted to point out that not all of us are like that, and that is what your post was implying. You came in hot and never specified, so...wouldn't be the first time someone tried to paint a large swath of the player base that way. I'm also no mind reader, though that would be nice at times. I'm a no nonsense kind of guy, in that I take absolutely none of it from anyone. By the time I wake up tomorrow morning I will forget this conversation ever happened. As to the rest of your post...we will have to agree to disagree on certain things, and that's okay.

[WaterShield]

Yeah the best way to reach them is also with sensible and productive conversation/feedback, neither of which have been present for the entire thread.

The crux of this thread on nigh on all accounts can be narrowed down to "I don't like this piece of content. Therefore, it should be cut in favor of content I do enjoy, irrespective of the implications it can have". It sucks that the content was announced as delayed, but this has been for a perfectly clear and evident reason, given that the entire world is in the middle of a pandemic. Whether you can criticize or not their initial decision to delay it from 5.3 to 5.5 is something completely different, and if anything should have been the focal point of the thread. You may actually find; an inability to act appropriately and not throw around casual like it is meant to be an insult will only lead the thread to fall on absolute deaf ears when it gets removed. It's really not difficult to have a productive conversation, and this falls on all the whining!

Did you know, as a fun fact, it'd have been near enough 6 between the time the game last got challenging/long-term solo content, and the time the next is.

History shows that the best way to reach them is to unsub in large numbers (1.0). Not saying that we're likely to see that over this though.