Monk Rework just brought us back to 2.0 MNK but with no GL.

[Sqwall]

[QUOTE=ssunny2008;5501944
- be lazy and lose a minimum of 10% max. dps.
- don´t play MNK.

And for me and tons of others, nothing could be more boring than being static on a boss in a forgivable, item based 100% rotation game like FF14 is. To dumb down one class after another IS NOT a good thing. The game is predictable in a lot of ways, the most content doesn´t even need a real tactic or anything. The only good design choice in the current tier is, that healers actually have to be healers in E11/12s and medigation has to be on point to survive. More of that is needed in the future to go away from the full dmg healers/tanks. Other stuff is far away from being that MMO teamchallenge or unique class experience.[/QUOTE]

All good points!

I fail to see how your static on a boss, when there are numerous mechanics that get in the way. In the case of monk (which WAS unique with GL uptime) had to be engaged with the boss to generate more GL. Compound this with positional's, AOE, mechanics, with GL? GL was the one thing that needed to be abolished to not change EVERYTHING else for one job. That's the past now. Look towards the future.

Your argument is based on Monk HAS to move around like a moron to be unique. Pretty loose argument. That's like saying Paladin has to jump twice to block. Silly.

I will NEVER accept the idea to make a class compelling is to just implement FORCEING me to move around to play better. I will however accept adding more mechanics the support the job/class I like. DNC is compelling, RDM is compelling, MCH is compelling, although I don't fully enjoy the style each of those offer, yet NONE of those need positionals to be compelling. I like monk. Positionals are a lazy way of forcing you to be engaged. If positionals were removed from NIN I don't think anyone would come back and say PUT THEM BACK IN. Honestly? Ask yourself that question.

I embrace the changes, and have NEVER felt bored playing monk before or after the changes. Frustrated before the changes...yes. Frustrated after...HELL NO! Amazing how that works. I personally get bored on RDM and that's the way it is. I always come back to monk, because I like monk's style. I always bring up the conversation about job identity, but others always bemoan the issue of "monk has deep gameplay don't change it!" or "GL was fine the way it was!". Yet here we are...GL is gone...Monk is changed...and still others looking to the past to keep monk the same, but also cry that it has no evolution.

Just because something is simpler...doesn't make it dumb. I also praise the changes to warrior with Storms eye timer, and nascent simpler to use. Defend it all you want...warrior is easy to pick up and play. I think out of ALL the QOL I want out of any MMO, job, class, UI, controls, systems, I don't want to be frustrated. It keeps me playing. It keeps me happy. And more importantly appreciate REAL change vs. keeping things stuck in the mud.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Of course noone will miss positionals on NIN, because you can stay like 99% of the time behind the boss already. But the whole kit of NIN works slightly different and you´ve the ninjutsu to take care about. Monk has nothing anymore to care about but positionals and those are fun to play.
What do you need to take care about on MCH, DNC or RDM? Pressing a buff here and there because of overheat? Dancing because the buff is gone? Going for the melee combo because you got enough mana? Those are only some buttons you press when limit X is reached or buff Y is gone. Do you really call that fun or engaging? If yes, then it shows where you´re coming from. It´s something you´ve to take care about, but it´s not hard to take care about and not hard to play.

There is a big gap between "somehing was made simpler" or "something is so simple, that it´s pretty much dumb".
Yes, warrior is easy to play as any tank is since ShB changes. Stormeye was more of an overall damage buff than QoL. Nascent got dumb´d down and the most probably don´t even use it to take care for others anymore. I call that a step back in game design. Half of the players probably don´t even know that they can assist the MT with it or to safe the unlucky DPS from the dead. It only caters solo play.

Tbh, what you write down let me highly doubt that you´re a decent player. You want to rely on your QoL things. "Oh yeah i can spam my AOE in 10 mobs at once, hehe." I see a lot of such guys here and there in dungeons or bozja dieing at the first boss mechanic.
It´s okay for me. The game is for everyone. But the game has more than enough casual content and classes. QoL is one thing if it´s needed, but the most stuff IS NOT. Playermade issues because you don´t want to improve, because you want to rely on "123 gimme loot please!". It´s annoying. There are other players too, who are ready to read the skills, to improve themself and to play something challenging.

And about "real changes". Those are not needed every year. New content and boss mechanics make the difference. If you want to get ride of positionals on monk, i want to see positionals on any physical range and range based damage on magical ones. Would you enjoy such real changes? I don´t think so.
Classes in MMO´s should always fit their major role and the subclasses should have different playstyles. I´ve mentioned it above, DRK vs WAR is the best example. They´re nearly exact the same class in the core. The only real difference is that the DRK has more magical defs and the WAR life depended / heal ones. This is a lazy design and it´s not even a thing to say "FF14 has 4 tank classes to enjoy!". It´s a lie. Maybe a thing on paper, but gameplay-wise a lie.

[ssunny2008]

I fail to see how your static on a boss, when there are numerous mechanics that get in the way. In the case of monk (which WAS unique with GL uptime) had to be engaged with the boss to generate more GL. Compound this with positional's, AOE, mechanics, with GL? GL was the one thing that needed to be abolished to not change EVERYTHING else for one job. That's the past now. Look towards the future.

Your argument is based on Monk HAS to move around like a moron to be unique. Pretty loose argument. That's like saying Paladin has to jump twice to block. Silly.

Imagine lots of poeple are able to play those numerous mechanics AND positionals and still do their job as a dps. Meanwhile others, who don´t have to care about anything than mechanics, still asking for a phys. range buff and die poorly in an avoidable AOE.
Your logic fails, because more than enough players proofed that any content was doable as monk and still is. Positionals were never an issue as much as GL wasn´t especially with the maintaining skills we had in ShB. It´s up to players like you, who wants to change a class completely, because you want to play that "because it looks cool" or for whatever reason. It´s not like FF14 has only 1 class you rely on. But that´s gonna happen when SE goes straight up that why of dumping down any class to a pointless 123 rotation with off gcd´s you just press for more damage, not because they bring anything to the class, the party or whatever. They´re there, you press them, that´s all.

Monks biggest core aspect was always about positionals and it´s engaging to play and to adjust here and there to certain boss mechanics. Nothing could be more boring than staying at the boss "123,456, oh i have to move to marker A, 123,456."
Positionals are not even so hard to play once you got used to them and the overall primitive boss design from SE does a lot to it. Next to some bad uptime mechanics, it follows a strict pattern you can get used to aswell and it´s pretty much the same on any bigger boss: AOE/TB -> mechanic 1 -> AOE/TB -> mechanic 2 -> AOE -> mechanic 3 -> AOE into phase 2 -> mechanic 4 (or 1) -> AOE -> mechanic 5 -> AOE into phase 3 -> advanced phase 1 mechanics....etc....

It´s always the same on any savage boss and anyone can get used to it with any class. And there we´ve some easy to play chars with less damage (phys. range) and medi or more challenging classes with a higher damage output where you actually have to care about something.
Again, if you cut this or that again and again, SE should get ride of any class and give the player 5 skills on the hand to play with and then all seems fine right? No it´s not. It´s no fun to have such limited variety and no different playstyles. Pressing some nonamed buttons in a highlighted combo is no fun. If that is what you call fun, then you should stuck in dungeons, because you don´t need any form of skill or knowledge to complete them.

All that casualization needs to stop! No serious endgame player wants that. And for everything else, you can be double left handed and ignoring timings or positionals anyway. Enjoy that stuff and stop trying to destroy the fun of others.

Oh and btw action MMO´s are the new ones and a lot of ppl enjoy to dodge and block by themself in the right moment. Doesn´t sound silly to me to jump twice so.

[Sqwall]

Given the lack of context in the response I'm not going to quote the above. I can't simply read the above without a sense of "Get GUD" in the subtext.

That being said: Monk for me was never about making it simple or dumb to play. It was about removing obstacles in place to put in place BETTER ones.

"GL was an obstacle....now it's gone. I enjoy the class now. Way more fun."

"Positionals are an obstacle...a crappy "job playstyle"....let's find a better one shall we."

"Oh wait? There are people crying about how positionals make monk what it is!"

"Is that so?... what would you say if we added something better then positionals and added real depth other then just...rotate to the back...rotate to the side?"

Sign me the F up!


No your argument is has no logic, your argument keeps the class in the mud, your argument completely undermines evolution of a class which has been subjugated to COUNTLESS arguments that the job NEEDS improvement.

If you truly believe positionals should stay over a new BETTER alternative...you are truly never going to be happy with any job changing. Cry about WAR all you want....those days are over. But I would emphasis you look towards what it will be in 6.0 rather then miss the good old days. All tanks are simple and clean to play now, and at the end of the day they do the job of what is asked of them. If you want your Warrior to blast more damage then a BLM? In your words...go play BLM.

I hate that comment... "Ugh you hate playing positionals on monk?.... Go PlAy McH oR BaRd YoU FiLtHy CaSuAl!" That is such a dumb argument, and that's not to make me a better player, or to help me get through savage/extreme/ultimate. Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player". WOW! I only WISH I could be JUST like you. *sarcasm*

Newsflash: It's a game and I don't get payed to be the best and I'm ok with that. However, I do pay a monthly sub to expect a good experience which we do get. Why should this not extend to player feedback to the devs. Crying out loud ENEGRY DRAIN was ADDED back in for scholars! I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could get GL added back as well. I dare you! Won't see me stopping you! Give it your best shot!

Better yet let's put stance dancing back in for tanks! Let's see how the community reacts to this, HELL better put Diversion back in as well to counter the agro! Might as well cancel the expansion and delete Shadowbringers and just continue with Stormblood. The top tier players have spoken and Stormblood is the stage they want to stay at.

In closing: I will never give up my campaign to make Monk the most fun class to play, removing GL was the first step. And I will be waiting with abated breath on your retort...this should be good. *more sarcasm*

[ssunny2008]

snip

It´s not about git gud, it´s about "leaving the core of a class as it is".

I´ve told you how "unique" classes are, proof me wrong if you want. What you want to force is to make monks or melees overall even more a no-brainer. You can´t even come with a great idea, how SE could bring more depth to the class. And guess what? It´s impossible. Positionals and skill effects which rely on them are 1000 times better than any "press a button when you reach limit X" mechanics you´ve on nearly any class in this game. Just because a class fits its role, doesn´t mean it´s fun to play if you just have 3 buttons to care about.

We all pay our sub, millions of players do and all enjoy different playstyles or content. It´s just selfish to come up like "please change the whole class, because i like to play it without this or that.", when thousands of other players enjoy it as it is and all match together in some way.
Think whatever you want, but it´s not dumb to say "play an easier class" or "then ignore positionals". You don´t need them for any content but savage or ultimate. It´s a minimum of a 10% damage loss if you stuck behind the boss. If you can´t live with that damage loss, then go play something else. FF14 offers enough classes to play and to enjoy. Again, there is no need to destroy the fun for others in exchange of another "1 click mechanic".

I won´t even talk about the other nonsense and sarcasm stuff you´ve written down there. You´ve nothing to say then "I want...easy please... because i don´t want to play it as it is right now!". Your knowledge, ideas, gamesense and arguments lack hard.

[IruruCece]

Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player".

I mean, they aren't wrong. If you hate positionals to the point where you're ignoring them entirely, you're probably not good at Monk compared to someone who is actually engaging with the mechanics and outperforming you. This is wild to me because before this patch you could set yourself up to have a solid minute in any given fight ignoring that aspect of the job.

If the problem you have is that people are better than you at the job because they are doing what it asks of them, the problem isn't with the job, and the job certainly didn't abuse those players into moving their character an arbitrary distance around the boss to do so, either.

[Saefinn]

No your argument is has no logic, your argument keeps the class in the mud, your argument completely undermines evolution of a class which has been subjugated to COUNTLESS arguments that the job NEEDS improvement.

If you truly believe positionals should stay over a new BETTER alternative...you are truly never going to be happy with any job changing. Cry about WAR all you want....those days are over. But I would emphasis you look towards what it will be in 6.0 rather then miss the good old days. All tanks are simple and clean to play now, and at the end of the day they do the job of what is asked of them. If you want your Warrior to blast more damage then a BLM? In your words...go play BLM.

I hate that comment... "Ugh you hate playing positionals on monk?.... Go PlAy McH oR BaRd YoU FiLtHy CaSuAl!" That is such a dumb argument, and that's not to make me a better player, or to help me get through savage/extreme/ultimate. Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player". WOW! I only WISH I could be JUST like you. *sarcasm*

I mean, you're arguing removing some of the job's flavour and playstyle. So I can understand the argument for "if its playstyle isn't for you, play a job that is" but I wouldn't throw "filthy casual" into that, especially as I am not of the mind your preference makes you a filthy casual, nor are BRD or MCH players. Speaking as a former SCH main who had their job's playstyle and identity ruined by simplification, I always figured if people wanted a job with bigger heals and a simpler DPS rotation they'd play WHM and let me enjoy my SCH. I can also speak as somebody who mainly tanked DRK, I always felt if people didn't like how technical it felt they'd play WAR, but now DRK plays like WAR. I just don't get why when a job's been designed a certain way people come along say "I don't like that" and expect it to be changed when it's not to their taste. I'd get it if they change something you liked about the job or if something was broken and doesn't work well. But positionals aren't broken and they've been here since day one. Especially if people like it. I always though the advantage of having multiple jobs fill a role was to appeal to different playstyles. There are jobs that rely much less on positionals as part of their playstyles and some that have none at all.

I'm sure other MNK's don't want the same treatment if they like some of its flavour.


Positionals are a part of how MNK is played and I would argue a part of their identity. The reason I say a part of their identity is because they're a martial arts based job and as a former martial artist I would argue that it represents that positioning aids its martial arts feel in a game mechanics sort of way.

This is because positioning can be very important in martial arts in order to open up vantage points, especially if you flow into them, especially in Karate. I was always taught to make as much use of my position as I can.

During spars I would not just strike head on, but try to position myself to my opponent's side because I can exploit an opening there (normally the ribs of soft tissue below the ribs, or as a sweep, especially if they've sifted their weight to their back leg) or even to the back of my opponent because there is an opening there, we can mean strikes to the back, or to the back of the knee or even an easier throw. For example if somebody comes at me with a kick, my block could have me move into the flank & counter. If they lunge punch I might deflect and step through their stance onto their rear side and counter. Or I could be doing the lunge punch to cut through their stance using the lunge punch as a distraction where I then aim to get them on the back on a turn.

And in martial arts there is a lot of movement in where you position yourself relative to your opponent.
I appreciate the emphasis on stance shifting on moves, which is another mechanic that feels martial artsy.

For all the flaws with MNK, one thing I have appreciated about its design is how it gamifies martial arts into an MMO playstyle. They of course, can't get an accurate representation in this style of game, but it does feel like they've designed certain MNK mechanics to emulate the feel. So I can definitely see the argument for positionals remaining a part of MNK's identity. I would also argue NIN should have kept its back stab.