Thread: Monk Rework just brought us back to 2.0 MNK but with no GL.

Originally Posted by Sqwall

No your argument is has no logic, your argument keeps the class in the mud, your argument completely undermines evolution of a class which has been subjugated to COUNTLESS arguments that the job NEEDS improvement.

If you truly believe positionals should stay over a new BETTER alternative...you are truly never going to be happy with any job changing. Cry about WAR all you want....those days are over. But I would emphasis you look towards what it will be in 6.0 rather then miss the good old days. All tanks are simple and clean to play now, and at the end of the day they do the job of what is asked of them. If you want your Warrior to blast more damage then a BLM? In your words...go play BLM.

I hate that comment... "Ugh you hate playing positionals on monk?.... Go PlAy McH oR BaRd YoU FiLtHy CaSuAl!" That is such a dumb argument, and that's not to make me a better player, or to help me get through savage/extreme/ultimate. Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player". WOW! I only WISH I could be JUST like you. *sarcasm*

I mean, you're arguing removing some of the job's flavour and playstyle. So I can understand the argument for "if its playstyle isn't for you, play a job that is" but I wouldn't throw "filthy casual" into that, especially as I am not of the mind your preference makes you a filthy casual, nor are BRD or MCH players. Speaking as a former SCH main who had their job's playstyle and identity ruined by simplification, I always figured if people wanted a job with bigger heals and a simpler DPS rotation they'd play WHM and let me enjoy my SCH. I can also speak as somebody who mainly tanked DRK, I always felt if people didn't like how technical it felt they'd play WAR, but now DRK plays like WAR. I just don't get why when a job's been designed a certain way people come along say "I don't like that" and expect it to be changed when it's not to their taste. I'd get it if they change something you liked about the job or if something was broken and doesn't work well. But positionals aren't broken and they've been here since day one. Especially if people like it. I always though the advantage of having multiple jobs fill a role was to appeal to different playstyles. There are jobs that rely much less on positionals as part of their playstyles and some that have none at all.

I'm sure other MNK's don't want the same treatment if they like some of its flavour.


Positionals are a part of how MNK is played and I would argue a part of their identity. The reason I say a part of their identity is because they're a martial arts based job and as a former martial artist I would argue that it represents that positioning aids its martial arts feel in a game mechanics sort of way.

This is because positioning can be very important in martial arts in order to open up vantage points, especially if you flow into them, especially in Karate. I was always taught to make as much use of my position as I can.

During spars I would not just strike head on, but try to position myself to my opponent's side because I can exploit an opening there (normally the ribs of soft tissue below the ribs, or as a sweep, especially if they've sifted their weight to their back leg) or even to the back of my opponent because there is an opening there, we can mean strikes to the back, or to the back of the knee or even an easier throw. For example if somebody comes at me with a kick, my block could have me move into the flank & counter. If they lunge punch I might deflect and step through their stance onto their rear side and counter. Or I could be doing the lunge punch to cut through their stance using the lunge punch as a distraction where I then aim to get them on the back on a turn.

And in martial arts there is a lot of movement in where you position yourself relative to your opponent.
I appreciate the emphasis on stance shifting on moves, which is another mechanic that feels martial artsy.

For all the flaws with MNK, one thing I have appreciated about its design is how it gamifies martial arts into an MMO playstyle. They of course, can't get an accurate representation in this style of game, but it does feel like they've designed certain MNK mechanics to emulate the feel. So I can definitely see the argument for positionals remaining a part of MNK's identity. I would also argue NIN should have kept its back stab.

I'm honestly a bitt confused after reading the patch notes... GL is now.. A trait? lol. What are we then, a DRG that lost their spear?

I haven't touched the job yet in-game, but it seems super boring now. It was fun having to keep up the stacks.. It gave excitement to the class
that you could only get in combat.. And that excitement piled on top of the emotional rollercoaster that raids offered.

And now? No GL, no worries, no excitement, no build up, no difficulty.

Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Let´s face it, ppl complain about everything everywhere or want this or that changed, not only on Monk. Samurai for example is probably the most broken class in FF14. The damage is insane even if you doesn´t play that well. The whole kit has everything you could imagine on a melee class to keep up 100% uptime easily without a real damage loss. You can even adjust your rotation if its needed. But still ppl complain about this or that because "it´s not perfectly timed", whatever.

You´re obviously fine with the new Monk, but what do you think will happen with 6.0? What is in the need to change when you can play 123 and spam off gcd´s? Away from the useless abilities and being soulless?! Whatever will happen, ppl will probably complain about that. And tbh, i can´t imagine something real is gonna happen, because it would´ve happen already. 1-2 more off gcd´s? God please no... The bar is already filled and spamming some buttons on cd is no fun.

I wouldn't say I'm fine with it, but frankly I don't think GL being gone actually impacts Monk in terms of how you play the job all that much outside of no longer having to spam Form Shift and getting screwed on down time at least as far as going from 5.3 to 5.4 goes. The heart of GL in ARR/HW was that it required aggressive play in order to keep your stacks. However the death knell for that wasn't making GL a trait, it actually came in 5.05 with Formshift allowing you to refresh it with minimal nonsense, and frankly it was necessary because the way they designed fights wasn't conducive to Riddle of Earth and Anatman. If I'd had to do Limit Cuts+Super Hawk Blaster transition or Wormhole Formation without Formshift refreshing I straight up would have switched to Samurai to keep my blood pressure down instead of clearing TEA on Monk. Like most I don't think they needed to remove GL and turn it into a trait either. It just needed a non-stupid means of rebuilding it that didn't require a trade off, be it standing around for a GCD or trading what was accidentally made into one of our heaviest damage cooldowns to get back to full, and for Tornado Kick to have a different effect than dumping stacks.

The devs didn't do that, but in terms of how it informs gameplay removing GL and giving us a skill to regain GL was fundamentally the same since upkeep was already brainless. It wasn't without an advantage either, because with GL just being a trait they aren't able to design more stupid upkeep skills for it which will force them to do something else.

I don't know what the devs will do going into 6.0, as I'm not them. I know what I'd like to see, which is for Chakra to be reworked so it isn't RNG based at all and with more skills that actually use it and overhead. If it isn't completely changed like that, it should at the very least be changed so that the design of Chakra is changed so that the RNG is actually deliberate instead of just tacked onto Meditate. It also needs another mechanic on it, full stop, and it would have needed one if GL hadn't become a trait. It just needs it now more so than ever with GL having become one. The reason Kenki/Ninki work on Samurai and Ninja is because it's one layer of complexity on top of Iaijutsu and Ninjutsu, systems that are well fleshed out in their own right. On their own they aren't enough to support a job without it being incredibly brain dead, and Chakra either as RNG or as a consistently building resource which is their equivalent, and by extension it isn't enough to support Monk either. I'd be all for Monk getting a Sabin/Zell like system where we enter a Blitz State and execute three weaponskills corresponding to a certain sequence of Opo-Opo/Raptor/Coeurl form which finishes the sequence with Suplex/Dolphin Blow/something similar. The most important thing though is that Monk doesn't stay like it currently is and gets something beyond just chakra, because Monk with only Chakra is quickly becoming an intersection of both boring and miserable to play.

As for other things, I want them to kill the fist stances as they exist because there's no reason they should have gotten past Stormblood's action cull as a series of Three Stances of which you only ever use one. They should reconsider Riddle of Earth and make it a flat 20 seconds with no charges (and also change the animation to what played when it got hit because that was hot). Old Riddle of Earth was superior, but it was almost too much, Monk is the positional job and being able to ignore them for up to half the fight at a whim was too much, but 6 seconds is way too short, especially with how busy the job is. On the other hand if they keep it as a 6 second effect, Monk should gain a new counter attached to it, Monk is the OG counter job going back to FFIII and while Featherfoot/Haymaker was a bad joke, that doesn't mean that the concept should be abandoned on the job. Monk also needs a decent mobility kit instead of two Shoulder Tackles that you're incentivized to weave into your burst window and Six Sided Star, a teleport or a dash would be a godsend. It needs some sort of ranged attack at low levels is needed for spot pulling in Palace of the Dead. Anatman is an obvious sore spot that I wouldn't be surprised to see get axed completely considering how poorly it was conceived on literally every level. I'd also say that Leaden Fist needs to go because it was as guilty as Monk's kit falling to pieces around itself as Anatman. There's probably more that could be done or is needed, but that's the gist of it.

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

snip.

Thx for the long answer. Just about your wishes:

I still think that Chakra is fine as it is. It´s not that hard RNG anymore. Of course it´s annoying when a crit or bootshine goes into nowhere, but the damage loss is negatable. I don´t want to see a "safezone" like kenki has for its skills and i don´t want to see more skills used with it. Of course it can still procc at any time and in bad situations, but it´s still better than having nonamed static cd´s you press every 30/45s, just because of reasons.
But there are some situations where it hurts hard, e.g. E11s when the boss disappears and you sit on 3/4 points left. That´s really sad since you lose pretty lose alot of points in such downtimes. It would be cool if they go the other way, no safezone, but you can unleash the attack with a damage loss.

The 30s RoE was superior yes, but pretty much needed in this or that mechanic aka E8s. 20s with the same cooldown could be too less or some mechanics and you could still spam it every minute. 30s and 3min cooldown or something would´ve been great to play around mechanics like ilya, the current diamond dust or whatever without button smashing and without being that broken.

I´m still a fan of combinding the stances in some way too. I liked the way GL worked with fist of fire into fists of wind with the same damage but more movement speed. It could be like you start in fist of fire. Once you´ve done requirement X you can activate a 2nd stance of your choice permanently. If you reached that requirement again, you can activate the last one for 15s. In my preference i would´ve more damage, more movement speed and FoE as def then. They could even combine them for new skills you can only use in different fist combinations.

What i really don´t want to see is a ranged attack. It doesn´t fit the class tbh. SSS is a great skill and fits the class 100% in such escape situations. But i would highly prefer overall more movement speed from FoW than that short boost you get from SSS.

Dashes should be reworked on any class. It doesn´t make sense that they get abused for more dps in the burst windows. Just look at dragoon who turns around to do a backjump to the boss, because the regular skills are needed for the damage. I don´t get why they aren´t there just to be there with X cooldown as gapclosers. Of course you can still save one stack or enough kenki to make use of them at any time, but it´s not a great design.

i was fine with formless fist and Perfect balance being stacks, no GL is overkill and Tornando Kick is ....a anomoly love the animation but detest random GCD but TK is a ogcd ...so maybe thats for the best? My real beef now is Twin Snakes being too tight. Perhaps Perfect balance can reset twin and demo? would make it less of a hassel then proceed to add whatver in 6.0

Originally Posted by Jirah

i was fine with formless fist and Perfect balance being stacks, no GL is overkill and Tornando Kick is ....a anomoly love the animation but detest random GCD but TK is a ogcd ...so maybe thats for the best? My real beef now is Twin Snakes being too tight. Perhaps Perfect balance can reset twin and demo? would make it less of a hassel then proceed to add whatver in 6.0

Changing TS in the favor if PB would last in double true monk, and that´s what SE obviously don´t want to see, otherwise things would be like they was before the rework. I liked it so far, but i don´t want to see TS increased or resetted by another skill you can put in your rotation. Monk is fast and it´s pretty much the last thing to care about in your rotation. Demo is perfectly timed now. To extend the durations, in whatever way you wish, would make the class even more boring to play. I don´t want a SAM 2.0 with big timers and easy adjustments for everything. I want something fun and challenging, even if it hurts hard when i missplay. I´ll remember that to improve.
Monks relation to combos, combined with positionals, fast gameplay and low timers matches great together. The buff on 2 gcd´s you miss every 90s is nothing compared to the damage you get from PB anyway. The job just needs more depth again and more stuff to care about. I would even like to see a lower base damage, but higher potency on positionals. The current damage loss of min. 10%, when you stay 24/7 behind the boss, is enough to clear E9-11s (E12s not sure) and this is ridiculous when we keep the core design of the job in mind.